Richard
Surely you can find a more appropriate insult for an atheist humanist.
Book review
Surely you can find a more appropriate insult for an atheist humanist.Debra
foolish, let me ask you this. You've agreed that essentially that the theory of Cathar origin isn't history but speculation, and "The Secret of the Tarot" is an imaginative exercise. Would you write it differently now, use different phrasing?
foolish
That's an interesting question. First, let me clarify that we have also established that ALL theories of the origins of the various tarot cards involve speculation. So I don't want to give in to the notion that the idea of a Cathar connection to the tarot is not a viable possibility, or logically sound. Secondly, I must stress that, although the interpretation of the images on the cards requires imaginative exploration, the theory itself is BASED upon historical facts - however circumstantial they may appear - and so to that extent, it is not altogether a fabrication of my imagination. Although this may sound like hedging, I think there is an important distinction here. Speculation without a historical foundation seems fanciful, while speculation based upon historical facts appears more plausible.
To answer your question though, I would have to consider the way most people have reacted to it vs. the criticisms some have expressed. My question to you is, would you buy a book based on the premise of "I know there's no real proof for this theory, and I couldn't find anything historical to back it up, but wouldn't this be a great idea?!" I thinkgiven the way this sounds, I would choose keep the general style the same and live with the occassional controversy it may create. However, there are probably several areas where, if I have the occassion to publish a second edition, I would alter a few things and expand on others to hopefully make things clearer.
The dilema for a book like this is that you can't please everyone. It's has never been my position to cater to a group of tarot historians who have their own perspective and basis for approaching a book like this.
foolish
Here is another source for the "alternative" view of the Judgment, as seen by the Cathars, adopted from their Bogomil predecesors: It comes from the Cathar Bible of Lyon as quoted in "Le Livre Secret Interrogatio Johannis. Aprocryphe d'origine Bogomile" (Paris: Beauchesne, 1980. Translated by Aline Caldwell).
"But I asked the Lord about the day of Judgement: 'What will be the sign of your coming?' And answering, he said to me.... And immediately the Lord will order the angel to blow his trumpet; in the trumpet the archangel will be heard from heaven to hell. And the sun will be obscured and the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall... Then the spirits (souls) will come out of the prisons of the non-believers... Here ends the secret of the heretics of Concorezzo, brought from Bulgaria by Nararius, their Bishop."
From this, we can learn several things: 1) Contrary to the belief of some tarot historians, the Cathars DID believe in the Last Judgment. 2) They did use images and symbolism similar to the Catholic tradition (i.e. the trumpet, the archangel, the releasing of souls from their [material] prisons - even the reference of heaven and hell.) Therefore, there is no contraindication for the use of this card within the Cathar context. In fact, we can also see the reference of the sun, moon and stars in this passage - could this be tied into the three "astrological" cards of the tarot?
The point here is that some "conclusions" which are made about the validity of the Cathar connection - such as the use of the JUDGMENT card - are based on faulty facts and are themselves not conclusive. Although this doesn't offer proof of the theory, it does allow for associations to be made - and questions to be asked .
"But I asked the Lord about the day of Judgement: 'What will be the sign of your coming?' And answering, he said to me.... And immediately the Lord will order the angel to blow his trumpet; in the trumpet the archangel will be heard from heaven to hell. And the sun will be obscured and the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall... Then the spirits (souls) will come out of the prisons of the non-believers... Here ends the secret of the heretics of Concorezzo, brought from Bulgaria by Nararius, their Bishop."
From this, we can learn several things: 1) Contrary to the belief of some tarot historians, the Cathars DID believe in the Last Judgment. 2) They did use images and symbolism similar to the Catholic tradition (i.e. the trumpet, the archangel, the releasing of souls from their [material] prisons - even the reference of heaven and hell.) Therefore, there is no contraindication for the use of this card within the Cathar context. In fact, we can also see the reference of the sun, moon and stars in this passage - could this be tied into the three "astrological" cards of the tarot?
The point here is that some "conclusions" which are made about the validity of the Cathar connection - such as the use of the JUDGMENT card - are based on faulty facts and are themselves not conclusive. Although this doesn't offer proof of the theory, it does allow for associations to be made - and questions to be asked .
Debra
The Cathar story is not the "secret of the Tarot." It's historical fiction. Might be fun to embrace that!
foolish
I guess we're just playing with words now. Within the parameters of this theory, it would have been a secret.
There is sometimes a thin line between historical fiction and historical fact. Often, the grey area between them can make an interesting story.
There is sometimes a thin line between historical fiction and historical fact. Often, the grey area between them can make an interesting story.
foolish
I think the more important point is the fact that many false conclusions have been made about the Cathars - how they lived, what they believed and what they would or wouldn't have done - and these misconceptions have been used to disprove a Cathar-tarot connection. This point, regarding the Judgment card in particular, has not been challenged or even ackowledged.
Debra
It can't be much fun to play Whack-a-Mole with legitimate doubts about historical plausibility, and this problem with the story of a Cathar-tarot link won't go away unless someone comes up with actual evidence for the connection. On the other hand, I think a novel would be fun. Lemons to lemonade. I visualize a printer's apprentice as the main character.
On the other hand, I think a novel would be fun. Lemons to lemonade. I visualize a printer's apprentice as the main character.gregory
OK - I will accept the Judgement card as a possible Cathar OK, even though it troubles me (sorry; I am not here as much as usual, as I am on capped internet !) But that doesn't address my primary concern - that the book is written with "is" throughout. I would have said the same of any other book outlining any other theory where there was no actual proof in the same vein, honestly !
Like - in the movie I saw last night, Cave of Forgotten Dreams, there was a point where they have found two sets of footprints - those of an 8 year old boy and those of a wolf - following a path next to each other through the cave. If they had said "they walked together" I would have objected; you cannot know. They in fact said "they may have walked side by side as friends; they may have been one following the other or they may have been made 3000 years apart." THAT worked fine for me.
And I would love to believe they were friends and I hold that thought - but I cannot say "It is so" much as I FEEL it was so (the first domesticated dog, like...)
If you had run throughout the book with "HP MIGHT be holding a heretical book" and the like, I would have been applauding the joy of it all.
And what WAS with those three trumps I pointed out were in the wrong order ? And the fact that some bits ONLY fit ONE or at most two versions of the TdM ? Like the VT, and the conch ? I don't want to nitpick to extremes, but these were issues that reading the book with the "is" glasses on hit me between the eyes. I read it all twice before putting pen to paper (yes, long hand !)
foolish
G - Your point is well taken. When I was going through the interpretation of the cards, I didn't really think anyone was going to assume that I was stating facts just because I had used sentences with "is." (And from the feedback I've received, that's been the usual case - people have been able to read the book as an exploration of the authors immagination). This is more of a writing style than anything else. I'm sorry if this threw you off, but I think the verbage was used as an extention of the premise, "within the context of this Cathar-tarot connection, this IS how I see it." Sorry if that caused some confusion.
I think that most books which deal in subjects that revolve around unproovable topics can always be picked apart, and my book is no different. What I've tried to offer is something new to the discussion.
In general, people want to accept things that agree with what they already believe, and reject those that don't. This is just human nature. You said yourself that having to accept the fact of the Judgment card still troubles you. This shows the inherent resistence we all have to ideas which don't conform to our own. And this is likely why the greatest resistence of this theory has come from people who have preconcieved ideas of what the tarot is all about. I'm not trying to say that you're stuck on any particular theory - as you have previously made this clear - but this is the general response I've noticed. The book was not written to make the statement, "this is how it is," but rather, "this is how it could have been." Fortuantely, most people have been able to make the distinction.
The fact that some interpretations are only applicable to a particular deck introduces a potential problem, as you pointed out - not all the decks share the same imagery. Of course, two things are possible: 1) that only the images that all the various decks have in common should be considered valid, or 2) that various decks were altered or made slightly different due to the personal (religious, political, etc.) perspective of the artist... or 3) that none of the variations mean anything in particular, but are simply the result of random artistic expression. I'm assuming that the second case is true.
I think that most books which deal in subjects that revolve around unproovable topics can always be picked apart, and my book is no different. What I've tried to offer is something new to the discussion.
In general, people want to accept things that agree with what they already believe, and reject those that don't. This is just human nature. You said yourself that having to accept the fact of the Judgment card still troubles you. This shows the inherent resistence we all have to ideas which don't conform to our own. And this is likely why the greatest resistence of this theory has come from people who have preconcieved ideas of what the tarot is all about. I'm not trying to say that you're stuck on any particular theory - as you have previously made this clear - but this is the general response I've noticed. The book was not written to make the statement, "this is how it is," but rather, "this is how it could have been." Fortuantely, most people have been able to make the distinction.
The fact that some interpretations are only applicable to a particular deck introduces a potential problem, as you pointed out - not all the decks share the same imagery. Of course, two things are possible: 1) that only the images that all the various decks have in common should be considered valid, or 2) that various decks were altered or made slightly different due to the personal (religious, political, etc.) perspective of the artist... or 3) that none of the variations mean anything in particular, but are simply the result of random artistic expression. I'm assuming that the second case is true.
