Why did Eliphas Lévi link Le Mat with Shin?


> Aeclectic Tarot Forum > Tarot Special Interest > Tarot History & Development



 
Huck  Huck is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,682
Huck 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post

Re: single figures and double, I am not sure that 23 is meant to be viewed as a double figure. Although the image appears to have two parts, the bottom part is not reversed as it is in the double cards - the lwb does not describe it in terms of two tableaux either:

quote:

23. Love, desire
Under the planet venus

Love follows shooting an arrow and has a blindfold over his eyes, but it is a gauze so slight, that the malignant child sees everything perfectly. His garland of flowers serves to hide the features it wishes to arouse. The allegory it holds is Egyptian, and denotes love, or rather desire. There is a kind of glass vase, from the narrow bottleneck of which there escapes a pure flame, distilling incense sacred to Venus. The two snakes that cross it mark the choice and prudence that we should bring in the formation of an alliance. The two cups denote both spouses, one is the father, heralded by the plants it is placed above, the other sterile, that rests on a bare rock. The ace of spades mean love, Venus, enjoyment.
end quote

So we have 11 upright cards, and 31 double; so we have 31x2+11 = 73 ; still one more than the '72 colored figures' mentioned in the booklet. . .
hi Stephen:

Interesting observation. I think, I construct a full deck view to make it easier to compare the cards.
See http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php...31#post3037631

... yes, indeed, the Love card is the only one with the quality, that the writing is only readable from one side.
Top   #131
kwaw's Avatar
kwaw  kwaw is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 29 Dec 2003
Location: Nr. Ephesus, Turkey
Posts: 5,400
kwaw 

Hi Huck

Cross-posted again -

The double-card No2 - which is definitely a 'double tableau' card, both sections are upright -

that gives us 12 upright cards and 30 with upright/reverse tableau, and

30 x 2 + 12 = 72


kwaw

ps: thanks for the full deck pics!
Top   #132
Huck  Huck is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,682
Huck 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
But it is counting those two as 'double' (having two tableaux) that we arrive at 74, so if we deduct them we deduct 4, not 2, = 70. Also as I noted above, I am not sure No. 23 is to be counted among the double tableaux cards (what seem 'two parts' of that card are both upright and described as one tableau) - so there are 11 upright and 31 doubles = 73 . . . perhaps because the consultant (an additional card in Etteilla) is taken as significator and place at the beginning or centre of the spread and is not randomly drawn it is not counted, that would give us 72?

(Card No.2 - both tableaux are unusual in that both tableaux are upright, but they are clearly described as two tableaux in the lwb's description - plus the card is symmetrically split along the middle, as are the other double cards, whereas the split in 23 is not across the middle.)
I see, what you mean.

Well, "Love" is a card, which builds a connection between two elements, in life, this are usual persons.
In the system of the Petit Oracle it might have been seen as the connection between single pictures presentation (a group of 10 cards) and two picture presentation (a group of 32, if we count "Love" as a member of it).
Further it stands at position Nr. 23, which would connect 1-22 (22 elements) and 23-42 (20 elements, if we count Love as an element of it). As Tarot and its system with 22 cards somehow is incorporated in the system, this is a "meaningful position".

Well, element 22 is the strong figure "Consultante". If Amor-Eros is clever enough to draw the Consultante to the other group, the 42 cards system would get a balance of 21-21 figures for each side. Perhaps that's the idea.
Top   #133
kwaw's Avatar
kwaw  kwaw is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 29 Dec 2003
Location: Nr. Ephesus, Turkey
Posts: 5,400
kwaw 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post

The double-card No2 - which is definitely a 'double tableau' card, both sections are upright -

that gives us 12 upright cards and 30 with upright/reverse tableau, and

30 x 2 + 12 = 72
This even matches the expression for 72 in French - soixante-et-douze - 60 and 12. . . a linguistic derived division?
Top   #134
Huck  Huck is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,682
Huck 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
Hi Huck

Cross-posted again -

The double-card No2 - which is definitely a 'double tableau' card, both sections are upright -

that gives us 12 upright cards and 30 with upright/reverse tableau, and

30 x 2 + 12 = 72

(This even matches the expression for 72 in French - soixante-et-douze - 60 and 12).

kwaw

ps: thanks for the full deck pics!
... :-) ... that's brainstorm ... .-) ... I adapt your interpretation

With 30 + 12 we're in the structure, which was used in the Poilly deck version 2 with 42 cards.

31-42 was in the Poilly deck the zodiac or the 12 months, naturally associating time

1-30 was a group made from various elements. But a month has 30 days and 12x30 = 360 (so nearly the year) and that was the idea of the Revolutionary calendar installed in France after the revolution, so just running in the time, when this deck was made (1807).
Top   #135
Teheuti's Avatar
Teheuti  Teheuti is offline
Resident
 
Join Date: 24 Aug 2003
Location: Northern California
Posts: 5,539
Teheuti 

Huck -
Thanks for the full deck pictures. Fascinating.

If I understand correctly this seems to be a deck created well after the death of Etteilla - around 1810 or later - which combines deGebelin/Mellet with the Etteilla Tarot and with the Petit Etteilla?
Top   #136
Huck  Huck is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,682
Huck 

hi Mary,

It's said to be from 1807
Top   #137
Teheuti's Avatar
Teheuti  Teheuti is offline
Resident
 
Join Date: 24 Aug 2003
Location: Northern California
Posts: 5,539
Teheuti 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post
hi Mary,

It's said to be from 1807
Sorry - I was looking at some of the links you gave and saw 1810 - which must have been for the later edition.

Kwaw - the 72 different images (counting 23 as only 1) can be clearly seen and counted here
http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/tran...racleDesDames#
Top   #138
Huck  Huck is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,682
Huck 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti View Post
Sorry - I was looking at some of the links you gave and saw 1810 - which must have been for the later edition.

Kwaw - the 72 different images (counting 23 as only 1) can be clearly seen and counted here
http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/tran...racleDesDames#
No ... 1810 (beside 1805) was for the Madame Finet deck (in the pdf-file) ...
... http://www.giochidelloca.it/storia/plock.pdf
... , which in DDD was considered earlier than the 42-cards-version ("in about 1800", p. 143).
In the noted PDF they present another opinion ...

In DDD article is mentioned, that parts of the deck go back to a Fortune telling deck with 66 cards of c. 1790 and to Etteilla.
As reference for the fortunetelling deck 1790 is given Depaulis 1989, "Les Cartes de la Révolution ... exhibition catalog".

In the pdf is mentioned:
Quote:
Depaulis notes that the game draws
on another, earlier and somewhat mysterious set of cards, which he called
“Jeu politico-divinatoire” (n° 99 in the 1989 “Les cartes de la Révolution”
catalogue), which is in the BnF and bears the APR (“Avec Privilège du Roi”)
imprint so it must date from around 1790. A very similar game was produced
circa 1810 by Robert, see Decker, Depaulis and Dummett (1996). There are
copies of Mme Finet’s sheet in the Cary collection of playing cards (Yale
University Library). They are catalogued as FRA 194 and FRA sheet 176. I
am grateful to Thierry Depaulis for this information.
Well, ... without knowledge of this material it's likely a little boring to think too much about it.
Top   #139
kwaw's Avatar
kwaw  kwaw is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 29 Dec 2003
Location: Nr. Ephesus, Turkey
Posts: 5,400
kwaw 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti View Post
Kwaw - the 72 different images (counting 23 as only 1) can be clearly seen and counted here
http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/tran...racleDesDames#
I count 73 (counting 23 as 1) -

but there are 12 upright only cards, one of which has two tableaux both upright (No. 2, and counting 23 as a single tableau) and 30 reversible cards - if one counts all the upright as single and only the reversible as double then (30x2)+12 = 72.
Top   #140
Elsewhere on the Tarot Forum
Popular Tarot Boards
· Using Tarot Cards
· Talking Tarot
· Tarot Spreads
· Tarot Decks
· Rider-Waite-Smith

Special Interest Boards
· Astrology
· Crystals & Herbs
· Divination
· Lenormand
· Spirituality

Popular Tarot Threads
· Pet Peeves
· Timing of cards
· Interesting tarot pairs
· The Moon as how someone feels
· The World as feelings

More Tarot Threads
· Cards for certain events
· Tarot meanings for health
· List of Tarot Questions
· Can Tarot be Dangerous?
· List of Tarot Myths



Elsewhere on Aeclectic Tarot
· Tarot Cards & Reviews
· Free Tarot Readings
· Tarot eBooks
· Tarot Card Meanings

Copyright © 1996 - 2021 Aeclectic Tarot. All rights reserved. Privacy Policy. Contact us. About us.