Hellenistic Astrology

Minderwiz

Ronia said:
Romance. I'm aware of the possible employment already. Besides, it's spring, time to hunt for the fellow wanderer. (I haven't given up on the man with the letter, just waiting patiently for the planets to align in the proper way, so it would be helpful to know what's on the cards)

OK, we'll try that - I don't guarantee success mind you but at least it will enable you to have a play with Aphesis

Minderwiz

Stage 3 Reading for Kalliope

kalliope said:
For my Stage 3 topic areas, here are my priorities, and you can do what you will:

1. My biggest questions in life are always: "What should I DO with my life? What are my greatest talents? Where should I focus my energy? What should I pour myself into? What should I study? Where can I give the most? Where could I be the most successful?" All the annoyingly complicated questions that we all have. So, I'm not sure where to find this in the chart (is it career related, or 9th house of higher learning and spirituality?), or even if Hellenistic astrology addresses these issues of vocation/calling.

1a/2. In a related question, I suppose I wonder if I will be successful enough at whatever this vocation is to be financially independent. I'm not sure how intertwined or separate these things are for your analysis.

3. Love life, I guess. Although I'm married and generally happy (and my husband is a wonderful, kind man), my idealistic, wild-child Venus is always wondering, is this it? Where is my big, dramatic, passionate love story? Isn't that terrible!!?! But on the other hand, I suppose it would also be good to know if my currently happy, comfortable, and companionable life in this area will be continue (if I didn't just jinx it with my horrific statement above. )

4. General health outlook.

Ah, Life, the Universe and Everything then - I think the answer is still 42

I think I'll have a go at Number 1. I don't guarantee anything but it is a good area to look at and I've just finished reading Chris Brennan's latest paper

http://www.hellenisticastrology.com/the-planetary-joys.pdf

In which he argues that the earliest Hellenistic Astrologers used the horizon as a dividing line between the soul/psyche/mind/spiritual dimension and the physical body/world/physical incarnation. The latter is associated with fortune - things that befall us the former is associated with our expression of who we are, our mind, spirit and intellect.

The connection between the two 'worlds' is the horizon, and that runs through the first Whole Sign House. Thus the first House brings together our mind and spirit and our body too. It's our whole self. Each 'world' has its own Lot. For the Earthly world (and Brennan tries to demonstrate that the houses from 2 to 6 are linked to the Earth through Triplicity) it is the Lot of Fortune and for the World of Mind/Intellect/Spirit (houses 12 to 8) it is the Lot of Spirit.

So I'll try and use both Lots to tease out something about your spiritual side.

A word of warning here, I don't think the philosophers of the time saw the world in the same terms as the New Age thinkers see it now, nor particularly in the same way that the Indian Astrologers were to see it over the ensuing 2,000 years.

Your Lot of Fortune lies in Gemini, in the eighth Place - this was called 'Idle' by the early Hellenistic Astrologers because it does not connect to the Ascendant. It lies above the horizon in the world of 'Spirit' It's ruler is Mercury, who is in Scorpio - the first Place, or Ascendant. This is where Mercury is best - it's his 'Joy'.

Your Lot of Spirit is the reciprocal of the Lot of Fortune. That is for a night chart, it is

Ascendant + Moon - Sun

It goes from the out of sect Light to the in sect Light - the Light of the Time - it should therefore illuminate your mind and spirit. Your Lot of Spirit is placed in the fifth House. Although this is below the horizon, it is the House called 'Good Fortune' associated with Venus and it is in Pisces, her Exaltation and even better it is with Jupiter, it's ruler, who is in dignity. Jupiter is the planet that was associated with the eleventh Place, 'Good Spirit'. Both the Lot and Jupiter are in opposition to Good Spirit and the Lot of Spirit is square by sign to the Lot of Fortune.

There's something of a struggle here, which I think actually describes the question you asked - how do you express your soul and spirit, when it is not harmoniously placed, either with the hemisphere of the soul, and is in something of a conflict with the the Lot that expresses how things happen to you.

The good thing, is that if you turned the chart so that Gemini was on the horizon, you'd see the Lot of Spirit in the midheaven. Spirit dominates Fortune.

The two rulers, Jupiter and Mercury are in Trine Ithough Mercury is with Mars). According to Firmicus, this trine makes you clever, talented, supported by keen intelligence and able to bring your activities to a favourable conclusion. You should earn advancement by merit and get reward. You might also learn the secrets of the stars (Mercury is the ruler of Astrology). Firmicus does qualify this by saying the trine must come from good houses, but the first and the fifth certainly qualify for that.

Your problem is therefore not lack of ability but lack of a clear pupose to use that ability for.

Possible things that you could use your talents for:

The place of Good Fortune was originally associated with doing good works - that is in the physical world. So charity work might well be one option. This could be through administration/managerial roles (mentioned by Firmicus for the trine) or it could be through fundraising. Jupiter rules the second place, through Sagittarius. Remembering that Pisces is the tenth place from th Lot of Fortune, you could well make a career in a welfare related organisation

Charities are not the only means of doing good works but it's a start.

Now returning to that trine - Mercury also rules the eleventh place 'Good Spirit' and Mercury is configured to the house by sextile. The eleventh came to be associated with friends, possibly because friends were seen as people who we contact at the level of the soul - true friends. It's also associated with 'hopes' You don't have any direct release for these, as there are no planets in the eleventh, so hopes must rest with Mercury and mercurial activities - your intellect and mind.

The tenth place is Leo, again there are no planets placed in it but its ruler the Sun is in the second place, and as such is trine to it. So just as Mercury tines Good Spirit, the Sun trines the House of Action - the Culminating Pivot. Whilst there are no planets in the tenth, there is the Lot of Eros = now that is the Lot of Venus and has connections to relationships - voluntary associations and friendships. In modern terms Voluntary Associations tend to be involved in 'good works' so we are back to that placement of the Lot of Spirit.

The Last seemingly positive place in the World of the Spirit is the ninth House - the House of God. Yours is in Cancer, and contains Saturn in Detriment and Retrograde and is ruled by the Moon, which square Saturn. This is not a good aspect at all, and shows some risk to your health, possibly from overdoing things. Because it's above the horizon, the risk is probably to what we would now describe as your mental health - stress, depression, possibly fears or phobias. A good health regime, should keep them at bay and I would think the greatest risk would only occur if you moved abroad. Remember that the Moon is in the dominating position - put Saturn on the Ascendant, and the Moon would be tenth house - so the Moon should 'overcome' Saturn's influence. Also Jupiter from the Left and Mercury from the right cast their trines around Saturn, helping to insulate it from the Moon.

Once thing that would concern me, is that Venus rules the place of the 'Bad Spirit' this is the twelfth house and is the Joy of Saturn. Natal Venus is in the second place but under the beams of the Sun and is not at home in a Fire Sign. She is also in partile conjunction with the Lot of Nemesis (the Lot of Saturn). The negative side of Venus is rather like modern Neptune's connotations, or at least the less attractive connotations. I think that shows the outcome if you end up overdoing things and damage your health. It is not something you should ever treat as determined - it's a risk associated with not taking care of your health and the chart shows that you should be able to do just that. Indeed if you do it well, the risk will seem absurd.

Spiritually you have real potential to do positive things in the world, if you are motivated. You can do that through career, or through some form of voluntary work. Given that Spirit is ruled by Jupiter, you may well be tempted to overdo things, with a consequent risk to your health. So a good healthy regime should offset those those risks but don't lose sight of it. The Mercury/Jupiter trine offers much and the possibility to 'make a difference'. Mercury rules your Lot of Fortune, and in turn your health - make sure Mercury is not overwhelmed by Jupiter (it should not be, as Jupiter lies to its right and it is in the dominating position) and you manage your involvement in whatever you choose to do.

I'm not sure whether any of that comes near the mark or is useful but you did ask

Ronia

Minderwiz said:
OK, we'll try that - I don't guarantee success mind you but at least it will enable you to have a play with Aphesis

Success in my romantic life?

No, I wouldn't expect this from you! LOL I'll be happy to play with the old fella Aphesis meanwhile!

kalliope

Just saw the updates on my chart here, sorry! I'll take a closer look at this later tonight or tomorrow morning and will post my feedback. I read it over quickly, though, and it's definitely interesting and gives me a lot to think about! Thanks also for the link to Chris Brennan's PDF.

Minderwiz

Jessyboo92 - Stage2

In your chart both Sun and Moon are below the horizon, the Sun in the fifth and the Moon in the third. Whilst it is a nocturnal chart, the Moon's position is worse than that of the Sun, as the fifth house is a succedent one and the third is a cadent house.

Porphyry says:

In general, whichever Light is closer to the pivots will be assigned as the Ultimate Ruler, then the Light that is nearer to the East and then the Light of Sect. If both the Sun and Moon are descending, then the Ascendant is chosen by default'

Delphic Oracle reports that the Predominator (Ultimate Ruler) is uncertain here. I think from Porphyry's statement that he would probably pick the Sun because it is in a succedent house. It is only 8 degrees away from the fourth Whole Sign House and it is actually conjunct the Astronomic IC, so it is angular in a quadrant system. What's more it is in exaltation in Aries, so I'm going to take the Sun as the Ultimate Ruler.

Incidentally these decisions only seem to be required in nocturnal charts, In diurnal charts the Sun is above the horizon by definition and even close to setting, it will be angular.

Taking the Sun would make Mars the Sign Ruler (I have used the analogy of the Managing Director) and the co-ruler will be Venus, as she rules the Bounds in which the Sun is placed.

If I had taken this as a case which was so uncertain that the Ascendant had to be used, this would give Jupiter the role of the MD and Mercury the role of the co-ruler.

Whichever I had chosen, Jupiter is still the 'helmsman' of the ship, as the ruler of the Ascendant, and as he's in the Tenth House, he is configured to the Ascendant.

The Lot of Fortune (the external environment, which affects you) is in the third House, ruled by Saturn, which conjoins it. Both are configured to the Ascendant, so your ability to take advantage of opportunities and avoid threats, is high. You should be able to use whatever befalls you for your own ends - even if it is not a particularly pleasant event at the time.

The last section here is the Trigon Lords. Schmidt takes these as the Trigon Lords of the Sect Light. The Moon is in Aquarius in a nocturnal chart and the nocturnal Trigon Lords for Air, are Mercury, Saturn and Jupiter. I must admit that this makes little real sense, if the Sun is going to be used as the Ultimate Ruler, as that would give Trigon Lords of Jupiter, Sun and Saturn. Jupiter and Saturn are common to both but they are placed differently in the order.

So if I were to use the Moon this would give

Mercury - Succedent House - good first period

Saturn - Cadent House - not so good middle period

Jupiter - Angular House - Really good last period

If I use the Sun I get:

Jupiter - Angular House - Really good first period

Sun - Succednet House - Good second period

Saturn - Cadent House - not very good last period.

I must admit that I can see no real way to choose between these two sets, at my current state of knowledge. As Schmidt knows more about it that I do, I suppose the Moon's Trigon Lords should be chosen.

Which planet would be taken as Supireme Ruler (Chairman of the Board) is clearly difficult in these circumstances.

If I were choosing in a non-Hellenistic context, I'd go for Saturn, as overall it has the most essential and accidental dignities combined. However Saturn has not really figured in the above analysis. Saturn is the ruler of the Sect Light though (the Moon) and would also figure strongly if I had gone for the Moon as Ultmate Ruler.

Second on my list would be Jupiter, who has figured in the Hellenistic analysis and would feature strongly if I used the Ascendant as the default instead of choosing the Sun. Jupiter also comes out top on Morinus' calculation.

Third would be Mars, which would figure strongly in the Hellenistic calculation if I went for the Sun as Ultimate Ruler.

On Schmidt's criteria of Fitness, Saturn is Rising, Direct, in it's own Place, but is in a cadent House.

Jupiter is Rising, Retrograde, in the Place of a Sectmate, but is angular

Mars is Rising and Direct, in the Place of a Sectmate and angular

This is a very difficult choice, and as I'm new to the area, I think it has to lie between Saturn and Jupiter. I think the only way to settle which it is, would be through seeing which played/plays/will play the greatest role in your astrological life.

Perhaps we might get some clues from Stages 3 and 4

Can you give me a topic area for the next stage.

Minderwiz

Ronia Stage 4

Ronia,

Can you give me a few dates from your past which are romantically linked - such as the date of your wedding? The I will go through those and see which Time Lord method fits best and try to use that to make some predictions for the future.

Minderwiz

Readings Timetable

Since the end of last week, one of my wife's relatives has been hospitalised with a suspected minor stroke. She's now well on the road to recovery but we are still visiting and that is eating into my time for readings.

I'll carry on as best I can but I can't promised any quick progress at the moment.

Ronia

Minderwiz said:
Ronia,

Can you give me a few dates from your past which are romantically linked - such as the date of your wedding? The I will go through those and see which Time Lord method fits best and try to use that to make some predictions for the future.

05.01.2006 was my marriage date. Unfortunately I don't remember my previous relationships' exact dates of beginning or ending. But I fell in love again towards the end of August 2012 and I sent the letter to the man which we discussed in the Horary thread on the 2nd of September. Actually something important romantically happened about the same time in 2010, between August 25 and September 3.

I'm sorry to hear about your wife's relative. I hope she gets better soon!

Minderwiz

Ronia said:
05.01.2006 was my marriage date. Unfortunately I don't remember my previous relationships' exact dates of beginning or ending. But I fell in love again towards the end of August 2012 and I sent the letter to the man which we discussed in the Horary thread on the 2nd of September. Actually something important romantically happened about the same time in 2010, between August 25 and September 3.

I'll start with Profections and then move on and look at how other Time Lord systems fit (it at all).

I'm using your Ascendant here, but it's perfectly possible to profect from any house or any planet. As that would be a major job, I'll try and keep things as simple as possible just to give a flavour of the method.

Using your Ascendant, your first year (up to the Age of 1) is a Capricorn year. Your second year (up to the age of 2) is an Aquarius year, your third is a Pisces year, your fourth is an Aries year and so on through the zodiac, returning to Capricorn in your thirteenth year (i.e. from the your twelfth birthday to your thirteenth birthday).

In general take your age last birthday and add 1 to it, to find your current year. If you were 22 last birthday then you are in your 23rd year and if you divide this by 12 you get 1 remainder 11. It is the remainder you are interested in, so a remainder of 11 tells you that it is the eleventh house which is active for that particular year.

In 2005 you entered a Cancer year. So the Active House is your seventh, the House of Marriage. This would have a background theme of marriage or relationships. Bear in mind that the Seventh has other connotations too, but it's a good start.

The month starting on your birthday was a Cancer month, the following month was an Aquarius month etc. You started a Virgo month in December 2005. Virgo is your ninth whole sign house - and has connections with overseas place and indeed overseas people. The first day of that month was a Virgo day, the second was a Libra day, the third was a Scorpio day and so on. The 5th of January 2006 was a Cancer Day. Cancer is your House of Marriage. If you married abroad (from your home country) then you have a perfect result here. Marrying on a 7th House day in a ninth House month in a 7th House year.

On that day the Moon trined its natal position from Pisces and Mercury, transiting your first house opposed Mars in your seventh. Venus also cast her opposition to Moon in the seventh. Transiting Mars was in your fifth House, sextile to your seventh. It did not actually make an aspect to natal Moon or Mars, but a Hellenistic Astrologer would have treated the aspect to the House as important.

If I had profected from Venus, as a general significator of marriage, it would have been a Pisces year, and on your wedding day, the Moon, ruler of your seventh was transiting Pisces. Jupiter, ruler of Pisces was trining your seventh from Scorpio If I profected the months of that year, youw married in a Taurus month. Taurus is your fifth House of romance and is ruled by Venus, the natural significator of marriage.

I would have said that the oppostions from Mercury and Venus to the seventh and planets in it, show that the marriage might have problems, and so it proved.

2011 (starting from your birthday) was a Capricorn year, that is the focus of the year was on you, body, mind and spirit. August saw the start of a Scorpio month (Scorpio's ruler Mars is in your seventh house), At the start of that profected month, Mars was in partile trine from Scorpio to its natal position. Scorpio is your eleventh Whole Sign House, the house of hopes and friendship - the house of the Good Spirit. Venus was transiting your seventh house of Cancer, and was conjunct your Descendant. From there it cast a Left sided aspect to Mars in Scorpio - Venus dominated Mars.

2nd September was a Gemini day. Gemini is your sixth House, which is perhaps not a good start but Gemini is home to your Lot of Wedding and one of your Marrige Lots. Mercury was actually just beginning its Transit of Virgo. The ingress would have been treated as important. Virgo also contains natal Venus, so it would have been aspected by transit. The transiting Sun (also in Virgo) was in orb of Venus. And of course Venus was transiting your seventh.

As you can see the only transits considered are those of planets or signs that have been activated by the profection, either by year, or month or day. The year sets the overall tone, month and day are the ones that you would notice more clearly as important.

BTW 2009 (from your birthday) was a Scorpio year activating seventh house Mars. The end of August 2010 saw a Virgo month begin, activating that sign and natal Venus. September 3 was an Aries day, activating Mars yet again and on that day the Moon began a transit of Aries. The Moon rules your Seventh House.

Ronia

Minderwiz said:
I'll start with Profections and then move on and look at how other Time Lord systems fit (it at all).

I'm using your Ascendant here, but it's perfectly possible to profect from any house or any planet. As that would be a major job, I'll try and keep things as simple as possible just to give a flavour of the method.

In which cases we profect from another house? I didn’t quite get it.

Minderwiz said:
Using your Ascendant, your first year (up to the Age of 1) is a Capricorn year. Your second year (up to the age of 2) is an Aquarius year, your third is a Pisces year, your fourth is an Aries year and so on through the zodiac, returning to Capricorn in your thirteenth year (i.e. from the your twelfth birthday to your thirteenth birthday).

In general take your age last birthday and add 1 to it, to find your current year. If you were 22 last birthday then you are in your 23rd year and if you divide this by 12 you get 1 remainder 11. It is the remainder you are interested in, so a remainder of 11 tells you that it is the eleventh house which is active for that particular year.

I didn’t understand about the remainder. My current year can not be divided by 12. I know it’s a Capricorn year because I see my Capricorn Ascendant but the number of the year can not be divided by 12. I’m missing something.

Minderwiz said:
In 2005 you entered a Cancer year. So the Active House is your seventh, the House of Marriage. This would have a background theme of marriage or relationships. Bear in mind that the Seventh has other connotations too, but it's a good start.

The month starting on your birthday was a Cancer month, the following month was an Aquarius month etc. You started a Virgo month in December 2005. Virgo is your ninth whole sign house - and has connections with overseas place and indeed overseas people. The first day of that month was a Virgo day, the second was a Libra day, the third was a Scorpio day and so on. The 5th of January 2006 was a Cancer Day. Cancer is your House of Marriage. If you married abroad (from your home country) then you have a perfect result here. Marrying on a 7th House day in a ninth House month in a 7th House year.

This all fits nicely, yes. I didn’t marry in another country but to a man who was from another country. I just had the ceremony at my own city. I only don’t understand how to profect the month and day. Or should I rely on the program you gave us?

Minderwiz said:
If I had profected from Venus, as a general significator of marriage, it would have been a Pisces year, and on your wedding day, the Moon, ruler of your seventh was transiting Pisces. Jupiter, ruler of Pisces was trining your seventh from Scorpio If I profected the months of that year, you married in a Taurus month. Taurus is your fifth House of romance and is ruled by Venus, the natural significator of marriage.

When do we profect from a planet? Is it a matter of choice or we should always do it? And why not profect from the Moon as a ruler of the 7th, do we always take the traditional meanings of the planet when we decide where to profect from (instead of the rulerships in the particular chart)?

Minderwiz said:
I would have said that the oppostions from Mercury and Venus to the seventh and planets in it, show that the marriage might have problems, and so it proved.

Did they oppose the Moon?

Minderwiz said:
2011 (starting from your birthday) was a Capricorn year, that is the focus of the year was on you, body, mind and spirit. August saw the start of a Scorpio month (Scorpio's ruler Mars is in your seventh house), At the start of that profected month, Mars was in partile trine from Scorpio to its natal position. Scorpio is your eleventh Whole Sign House, the house of hopes and friendship - the house of the Good Spirit. Venus was transiting your seventh house of Cancer, and was conjunct your Descendant. From there it cast a Left sided aspect to Mars in Scorpio - Venus dominated Mars.

You mean 2012, right? Or if you didn't mean 2012, does it mean now I'm in an Aquarius year? Does this Ascendant differ from the SR Ascendant?

Minderwiz said:
2nd September was a Gemini day. Gemini is your sixth House, which is perhaps not a good start but Gemini is home to your Lot of Wedding and one of your Marrige Lots. Mercury was actually just beginning its Transit of Virgo. The ingress would have been treated as important. Virgo also contains natal Venus, so it would have been aspected by transit. The transiting Sun (also in Virgo) was in orb of Venus. And of course Venus was transiting your seventh.

Gemini is also about communication, wouldn’t that be a factor? Since the whole issue has been around communication (or lack of it)? And, I wrote before, the time when the Sun enters Virgo (containing natal Venus) each year as well as the time when Venus returns to its natal positions are always significant in my life. By the way, the man is a Virgo with heavy Cancer influence. I also met my ex husband in late August too. I think it was the last day of August actually. Does it mean I should pay closer attention to Venus?

Minderwiz said:
As you can see the only transits considered are those of planets or signs that have been activated by the profection, either by year, or month or day. The year sets the overall tone, month and day are the ones that you would notice more clearly as important.

Yes, I get this.

Minderwiz said:
BTW 2009 (from your birthday) was a Scorpio year activating seventh house Mars. The end of August 2010 saw a Virgo month begin, activating that sign and natal Venus. September 3 was an Aries day, activating Mars yet again and on that day the Moon began a transit of Aries. The Moon rules your Seventh House.

OK, so it all fits when we look at past events. How do we predict? Looking for times when the same significators will be activated? Is the program you gave us the tool for this? I haven’t tried predicting with it yet. (this man was a Venus sign with Virgo Ascendant, a pattern, no?)

Considering this year is a Saturn one (Ascendant Capricorn or Aquarius, I'm not sure yet since I don't know if it's the same as the SR Ascendant) it doesn't look like a good romance year. But since he's ruling the 1st and 2nd (whole sign) rather looks like a year for myself (or on my own) and possibly financial dealings (on top of that he's in the 8th). How do I see if romance is on the cards this year? Can the month and day play a role despite the Saturnian rulership?

P.S. I tried to do something with this Aphesis and I don't understand anything. Where do I enter my birth date and how do I know which sign to start from? It's very confusing and the Help doesn't work with Vista. Also, it doesn't show months and dates Lords, it shows Major and Sub. Some of them longer, some shorter.