Hellenistic Astrology

Barkey Foreman said:

So Saturn is my STRONGEST planet in traditional astrology? I also got a question about the dignity thing. According to modern astrology's Walter Pullen calculation, I am also Saturnian (but its my 3rd dominant and I'm primarily Plutonian followed by Solarian).

The thing is I'm also Aquarius dominant tied with Scorpio according to the calculation. At the exact same whole number percentage (14%) and only separated by decimals.

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Forget Pullen or Modern systems, when looking at Hellenistic Astrology you have got to look at it in its own terms - rather like switching to Jyotish (Vedic Astrology) For a start it does not use the outer planets (just like Jyotish, even in modern times).

In terms of which is your strongest, it depends on the criteria you use. Saturn is in its own sign and in an angular house with no major debilities at all, except for a mild affliction from Mars by conjunction. Mars suffers more here, because it is less malefic than Saturn and because Saturn is earlier in the zodiac. Saturn is the stronger.

On a Medieval basis, using Ibn Ezra's calculation for Almuten (winner) of the chart, Mars comes out first and Saturn is third or fourth! Personally I'd take Saturn as the strongest planet in your chart.

Barkey Foreman said:

What you stated about difficulties at home is TOTALLY TRUE (as are modern interpretations of Saturn and Mars in 4th house as well as Aquarius 4th house and Aquarian relationships with family).

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Don't forget that Horoscopic Astrology orginated in Hellenistic times. It was passed on to India in the second century or so and it still forms the core of Modern Astrology, though many of its methods have been dropped and Jungian Psychology injected in their place. Unlike Jyotish, Western Astrology does not have an unbroken tradition. Currently there is a lot of effort going into recovering that tradition but there's an awful lot we still don't know or are not sure of.

Barkey Foreman said:

I also have a question about the Moon-in modern astrology much of my problems can be attributed to hard aspects between Moon and the rest of the chart. In fact Moon is tied with Saturn as second dominant planet in modern astrology at the same whole number and only separated by percentages. Leo is also tied with Capricorn as my second dominant sign at 13% again separated by percentages. So the Moon is insignificant according to traditional interpretations?

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The Moon signifies your very existence. It is never insignificant. You are born at night, the Moon is your sect light. It's condition and position are very important to the way you will cope with life. Unlike Modern Astrology, the Moon is seen as nearly as important as the Sun. It provides light in the Sun's absence. So having the Moon high in a nocturnal chart is good. Your Moon is Angular, so it's going to influence both your actions and your career.

Barkey Foreman said:

Also what would you say are my dominant signs based on what you see on the chart? I am curious how different the dominants would be since Saturn is my primary dominant according to your reading. Would Solarian still be a strong influence?

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Signs have importance only to the extent they modify the planets. They can't change the planets' basic nature, only the extent to which it manages to articulate it.

Barkey Foreman said:

And based on your interpretation of Saturn, it seems I was correct afterall that I am 4th house dominant at least based on what I can find in modern astrology. What does traditional say?

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The dominant or productive areas are all the houses except the second, twelfth, sixth and eighth (which are idle). The Ascendant is always the best place, whether it shows well or ill depends on its ruler and any planets in it. In your case Mars, the ruler. The angles usually follow in turn, tenth, seventh, fourth. how well you are able to use them comes back to their rulers and their tenants. For you with the IC ruler in it's own Place and the Ascendant Ruler with it. Your fourth is going to be more important than the other angles. How you cope with the affairs of this place directly affects your health and well being, mentally and physically.

Barkey Foreman said:

Also what does Part of Armies in Scorpio in 1st house signify? Its should be weak in traditional because its modern ruler is lacking. But in modern astrology its POWERFUL with an almost precise conjuction only separated by seconds and its true the military has played a strong role in my life. Scorpios' traditional ruler Mars is in Aquarius so what aspects would explain why Part of Armies in Scorpio is so powerful in my life even though it lacks conjunctions to any planet? I'm more inclined to believe more in modern astrology as far as Part of Armies goes because it seems Scorpio is weak in my traditional astrology chart.

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I'll deal with Lots in a later post

My next step would be to look at the chart in more detail, starting with the Triplicity Lords of the sect light and sketching out your key life phases.

That would then lead on to an analysis topic (house) by topic. I don't have time to look at all areas of your chart in this thread but I normally read for an area chosen by you.

The final step would be to look ahead and do some predictions based on past trends using one or more predictive methods.

I don't want to move on to these until you are ready.

Go ahead do so right. I'll ask questions regarding the earlier stuff later today but go ahead do triplicities, stages in life, and so on later.

Triplicity Rulers of the Sect Light

The Sect Light is the Moon and it lies in a Fire Triplicity (Trigon) sign - Leo.

There are three designated rulers.

Jupiter by night (the early part of your life)

Sun by day (the later part of your life)

Saturn the co-operating ruler (supports both parts)

The key test is angularity. but it is worth noting that all three rulers are diurnal planets. that is they are contrary to the Sect of the Moon.

The best place for a successful life is to have these three in Angular or Pivotal Places (Houses) for an average life they will be in Succeedent or Post Ascensional Places. If they are in Cadent (Declining) Places then they point to low success and struggle.

Your three are placed as follows:

Jupiter in the eleventh (Succedent)
Sun in the fifth (Succedent)
Saturn in the fourth Angular.

So you have two succeedent planets and one angular planet suggesting an average, shading to successful life.

To time these periods, which may not be equal halves, we need to know two things:

The periods allocated to the planets.

The rising times of the signs.

The periods of the planets are not equal:

Jupiter has 12 years,
Sun has 19 years
Saturn has 30 years

For the derivation of these see page 61 post #301

The rising times for the signs at your birth place at the time of birth were:

Virgo 30.94 Years (this is obtained from the number of degrees that pass over the MC, whilst the sign of virgo was rising - 30.94 and converting degrees to years) Virgo is the sign in which Jupiter is placed.

Pisces 24.88 years (Pisces is the sign of the Sun and again the years are calculated as for Jupiter)

Aquarius - 27.45 years (Aquarius is the sign in which Saturn is placed)

It seems the planetary periods and Ascensional times can be combined, so we can derive a number of significant years in your life.

The first is 12 years, the planetary period of Jupiter. This translates as your twelfth year - that is between your eleventh and twelfth birthday The experience should be mildly good, as Jupiter is a benefic. It might relate to friendships (eleventh house) or a Jupiter experience, some good luck, your first communion (Jupiter rules religion), a legal decision that goes your way.

The Ascensional Time for Virgo is 31 years (approx) so Jupiter should yield a second significant event between 30 and 31 years old.

The third Jupiter possibility is age 42 to 43. (Jupiter period + Pisces Ascensional time)

Jupiter will not be overly kind though. Firstly it is contrary to sect. Secondly it opposes the Benefic of sect, Venus, thirdly it's in detriment and fourthly it's domicile ruler, Mercury is not well placed. I doubt these will shift the experience to any worse than neutral but you should look for events that you have experienced so far at these ages.

The Sun would yield a signifiant event around 18 - 19 years old.

The Ascensional time of Pisces is 25 years so we would expect an event around ages 24 - 25

The combination of the two gives something around ages 43 - 44 which is the same as that from Jupiter. So this is a doubly indicated event, or two events very close together.

As the Sun is better in terms of essential dignity than Jupiter, it's likely that the second half of your life is going to be slightly better than your first.

The problem planet here is Saturn, as the co-operating ruler. It should bring some more success, especially given it's placement in an angle and in it's own sign. But it is the out of sect malefic, so I would think there will be a cost to any success it helps bring. It's most likely contribution is going to be in the second half of your life, though age 29-30 is something to look at. Remember that the Ascensional time of Virgo is about the same, so you should find ages 29 - 31 yield very significant events in your life (probably two or one major one).

From these alone your life looks average to good. especially in the second half when Saturn may make a greater contribution. But that success may well come at a cost.

The Triplicity Rulers should be considered along with other factors, most notably the Lots and I'll look at the key ones in the next post and see what additional light they throw on how well your life will go.

The Lot of Fortune

The Lots (erroneously referred to as Arabic Parts) are used to examine your life and response to the world around you. Most of them are topic related, such as Marriage Lots, it's likely that some of those will feature in the next stage of analysis.

The two key lots are the Lot of Fortune and the Lot of Spirit. Both of these relate the positions of the Sun and Moon in your chart to the Ascendant of your chart, these being the three most important points.

The Lot of Fortune was referred to as the Lot of the Moon. It is concerned with how the environment impinges on your life and in particular your body health and welfare. A well placed Lot with a ruler in good condition and itself well placed give you the basis to foresee changes in the environment and prepare for them. A poorly placed, with a ruler in poor condition will signify that you are at the mercy of changes in the environment, always reacting to events beyond your control.

In your case the Lot of Fortune lies in Gemini, in your eighth place (house). This placement means that it is averse to your Ascendant, which is not really what is wanted. To make matters worse, its ruler, Mercury is also averse to the Ascendant. The good news though is that Mercury itself is configured to the Lot by sextile (Aries to Gemini). Mercury is also sextile to Mars, the Ascendant ruler, which is itself configured to the Ascendant by square. You don't see things happening in the environment very quickly but you do have a mechanism to react to them when they are spotted. The delay comes from the linkages Fortune to Mercury to Mars to Ascendant.

The analysis of the Lot of Fortune suggests that you will be able to react to the environment, though with a little delay. If the Triplicity Lords of the Sect Light indicated a poor life, then this analysis of fortune would at best mollify it a little but not boost it particularly much. If the Triplicity Lords indicated a highly succesful life, then this analysis of the Lot of Fortune would suggest that things migh not always run smoothly, though not enough to destroy reasonable success. As it is, Fortune indicates an average existence.

Lot of Spirit

The Lot of Spirit is sometimes referred to as the Lot of the Sun. It gives an indication of your ability to act in a way that can modify the environment to meet your needs. The Lot came to be seen as an indicator of career, as this is the main way that we influence our own lives.

Your Lot of Spirit lies in Aries, in conjunction with Mercury. Again the Lot is not configured to the Ascendant, but unlike the Lot of Fortune, its ruler, Mars, is configured to the Ascendant. Mars is also configured to the Lot by Sextile. Mars is well placed in the fourth and in its own confines. It is afflicted by Saturn but the conjunction is separating and already reasonably wide. So we have a weak affliction. Saturn also afflicts the Lot of Spirit through a partile sextile. This might not be a square of opposition but it is a very close connection of the Lot and Saturn.

But for the Saturn aspect, I'd say that you were reasonably good at taking action to influence events. Saturn suggests that there may be some delays caused by fear or not feeling that action will be effective If so it's something you need to address.

Again the Lot of Spirit does not indicate that there will be significant failures to manage your life, nor does it indicate massive success in changing the environment. Cope with Saturn and you might well raise your success level.

Some specific parts and aspects

What would Part of Mothers in Taurus represent?

Also Part of Retribution in Scorpio?

If Part of Retribution and Part of Armies are both in Scorpio and oppose Part of Mothers in Taurus directly, what would that bring?

Also how many degrees much the Arabic Parts be to conjunct the Ascendant (or any other planet for the matter)?

Minderwiz said:

The Lot of Spirit is sometimes referred to as the Lot of the Sun. It gives an indication of your ability to act in a way that can modify the environment to meet your needs. The Lot came to be seen as an indicator of career, as this is the main way that we influence our own lives.

Your Lot of Spirit lies in Aries, in conjunction with Mercury. Again the Lot is not configured to the Ascendant, but unlike the Lot of Fortune, its ruler, Mars, is configured to the Ascendant. Mars is also configured to the Lot by Sextile. Mars is well placed in the fourth and in its own confines. It is afflicted by Saturn but the conjunction is separating and already reasonably wide. So we have a weak affliction. Saturn also afflicts the Lot of Spirit through a partile sextile. This might not be a square of opposition but it is a very close connection of the Lot and Saturn.

But for the Saturn aspect, I'd say that you were reasonably good at taking action to influence events. Saturn suggests that there may be some delays caused by fear or not feeling that action will be effective If so it's something you need to address.

Again the Lot of Spirit does not indicate that there will be significant failures to manage your life, nor does it indicate massive success in changing the environment. Cope with Saturn and you might well raise your success level.

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I don't comprehend this one. Much of my life trying to influence events is something I almost always failed at and I admit I often lose hope and feel like I don't have any control.

Granted my upbringing played a major role in this and my parent even admit its hist fault for not guiding me and neglecting me to go off in a directionless pattern.

Is my case an example of astrology failing because of external factors? Because even now I have struggle trying to initiate events and so.

The statement about fears and feelings not actions I do would change the actions of the event is 100% spot on though! In fact thats the only part of this reading that accurately matches me.

Barkey Foreman said:

I don't comprehend this one. Much of my life trying to influence events is something I almost always failed at and I admit I often lose hope and feel like I don't have any control.


The statement about fears and feelings not actions I do would change the actions of the event is 100% spot on though! In fact thats the only part of this reading that accurately matches me.

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Minderwiz said:

Again the Lot of Spirit does not indicate that there will be significant failures to manage your life, nor does it indicate massive success in changing the environment. Cope with Saturn and you might well raise your success level.

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Your feeling of being at the mercy or external forces and not being able to deal with them, I understand. You have that strong Saturn sitting at the bottom of your chart and it provides a fear of action and pessimism in the outcome and indeed in your outlook for life.

What I am saying is that you can cope with that fear. There is no major problem either with your lot of Fortune or your Lot of Spirit. You are not a rudderless ship blown about the ocean with no way to react constructively.

You have the ability to deal with fate and to act. That is not unlimited, and it will certainly not be easy, at best it's about average. There's no reason why you should not cope with life as well as the next person, if you put your mind to it. But if you continue to kneel to Saturn, then you will not realise your potential. Overcoming fear and realising that you can not only take responsibility but you can manage your life is your challenge. You are still young, you've not yet reached your first Saturn return.....Things will improve from then.

Barkey Foreman said:

What would Part of Mothers in Taurus represent?

Also Part of Retribution in Scorpio?

If Part of Retribution and Part of Armies are both in Scorpio and oppose Part of Mothers in Taurus directly, what would that bring?

Also how many degrees much the Arabic Parts be to conjunct the Ascendant (or any other planet for the matter)?

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You're covering quite some area there. My next step is usually to get you to choose an area of life and for me then to examine that in more detail using the relevant house(s) and Lots

As a general point the Lots were used for over a thousand years, and the Arab Astrologers in the early medieval period added quite a few of their own. The purpose of the Lot is to extend the analysis of a specific subject. So Lots related to Mother, Father, Children can give more information about family relationships. Lots relating to marriage can give more information regarding any marriage than just looking at the seventh house and its ruler.

The latter point is important because Lots are only used for their specific purpose The Lot of Armies (and police) mentioned by Al-Biruni (who was writing about a thousand years after the beginning of the Hellenistic period) is related to tenth house matters, such as the King (ruler) and government and their ability to perform their duties. The Lot is not applicable to an individual, unless he or she has a governmental role. It would never, under any circumstances be contrasted with, or even analysed with the Lot of the Mother, except where one is building a picture of a ruler's ability to enforce his rule and there is a belief that his mother is the real power behind the throne. For an ordinary 'citizen' the Lot of Armies is not relevant but the Lot of the Mother may be very relevant.

Lots themselves, like the Ascendant, are points. They do not and indeed cannot make aspects with each other. What matters is their house placement , their ruler and any planets that aspect them for good or ill

OK, pick me an area of Life that you want to know more about