book/books by A E Waite


> Aeclectic Tarot Forum > Tarot > Tarot Books & Media




 
Lillie's Avatar
Lillie  Lillie is offline
Frog
 
Join Date: 12 Dec 2004
Location: Nowhere
Posts: 11,969
Lillie 

Hi

well, I can't say much. as I havn't got them yet!

All I know is that they are from the 70's, and were published by 'University Books'.
I believe that the backs are pink with a small ankh in the centre.
Also, on the auction, the picture showed cards with a very bright blue colour.

That's all I know. I don't think they are rareor valuable or anything like that.
Just so long as the backs don't look like a table cloth!

I am a total RWS novice, (though I could write a thesis of Thoth variations!)
I'm sure there are people here who know all about the different RWS decks.
Top   #11
wandking  wandking is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 22 Dec 2004
Location: alabama, USA
Posts: 478
wandking 

I've found that RWS card color meanings closely match Masonic color symbolism. In The Key to the Tarot, Waite writes that Smith chose the colors. This next entry is a prime example of Waite atempting to mislead the reader in some writings he did on Freemasonry:

Not long after release of his deck, Waite became active in Masonry and published several books on the craft but maintained secrecy involving Masonic Symbols. Waite, writes, "There is no recognized scheme or science of colors in Masonry. Here and there in our ritual we find an 'explanation' for the use of a certain color, but this usually turns out to be merely a peg on which to hang a homiletic lecture about it, having little if any connection with the origins of its use.” According to Brother John Shroeder, a writer with the California Freemason On-Line, “Masonry employs symbols to teach moral lessons.” Not only Masonic lectures but also other writings clearly associate symbolism with color, especially blue and Shroeder goes on to say the “explanations are but the tip of the iceberg.” The Virginia Mentor's Manual contains a section saying that it is unknown where, when or why the name Blue Lodge originated but also points out that blue is a color of truth and fidelity, basic in teachings of the craft.. It also states that, "some find symbolism in the blue arch of the heavens and have urged that for a Freemason the virtues of friendship and benevolence must be as expansive as the heavens." It concludes with a reminder that the proper term is "Symbolic Lodge rather than Blue Lodge, although blue as a color and symbol is prominent in our teachings.” Dr. W. J. Chetwode Crawley, a highly respected Masonic Historian, states, "The ordinary prosaic enquirer will see selection of blue as the distinctive color of Freemasonry.” The Grand Lodge of India teaches that deep blue symbolizes wisdom.

In an article titled, Talks on Freemasonry by Brother. Kenneth J. Tuckwood, District Chairman of Masonic Education offers good color references saying, “Colors have so large a place in customs of the craft that inevitably the question arises "did ancient symbolism inspire the colors of Masonry or were they chosen and the symbolism then found to fit them?" Henry Sadler, a noted Masonic authority writes," We must conclude, therefore that Freemasonry's colors were no more derived from ancient symbolism than were colors of the liturgical vestments of the Christian Church derived from those of the Jewish Priests.” Subsequent color associations are excerpts from Talks on Freemasonry.

BTW, If knowing the Masonic color designations is of any importance to you, I'm willing to share what I know... just not in this forum since it's off-topic.
Top   #12
Lillie's Avatar
Lillie  Lillie is offline
Frog
 
Join Date: 12 Dec 2004
Location: Nowhere
Posts: 11,969
Lillie 

Hi Wand King.

Sorry it has taken so long for me to get back to you. I have been having a computer/husband/furniture problem. (if you can imagine that!)

However, I would love to know about the colour correspondances, if you would like to tell me.

I got my first ever RWS today. The University Books version. The colours are nice and bright, but a bit 'blotchy' if you know what I mean.
I know very little about this deck, let alone this version of it. I couldn't find anything about it on the site by Holly. So, if anyone knows anything about it, let me know.
I have noticed that it has the 'Oh S***' line, (but not the C variant vertical line, and it also has the 'love' under the sig.
I suppose that would make it a copy of either Pamela A or D.

Any comments from the RWS experts?
Top   #13
EricTheHermit's Avatar
EricTheHermit  EricTheHermit is offline
Resident
 
Join Date: 16 Jan 2005
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Posts: 86
EricTheHermit 

Here is a link to a free e-book site which has a tarot section that includes Waite's Pictorial Key To The Tarot and Crowley's Book Of Thoth. The e-books are legal because the texts are all public domain, having been written at least 50 years or more ago.

http://www.hermetics.org/ebooks.html

- Eric
Top   #14
Lillie's Avatar
Lillie  Lillie is offline
Frog
 
Join Date: 12 Dec 2004
Location: Nowhere
Posts: 11,969
Lillie 

I got the Case book today. Can you believe 2of the pages have been torn out!
Once again, I am not a very happy bunny.

However, he does give a lot more info on the symbols used in his cards than Waite did. And this info relates to many of the RWS cards also, as many are virtually identical, and the 2 men were working from the same tradition.

However, how Case's artist dared put her sig on the pictures I do not know, as so many of them are stolen lock, stock and barrel from the RWS.
Top   #15

Vincent  Vincent is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 04 Dec 2003
Location: SA Australia
Posts: 353
Vincent 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarotbear
Waite's "The Key to the Tarot" is boring as hell! It is written in that boring lexicon of a hundred years ago, and his terminology is dreadful! I paraphrased a section of it to use in the 'Combinations' section of my book, and I had to first determine exactly what his one-word description was supposed to mean, then scour a thesaurus to try to find something that was more modern useage to make it understandable...
Boring or not, it is the essential primary source concerning the deck. Waite's symbolism cannot be understood without reference to it. If you are seriously interested in the RWS, then you have no choice. Otherwise you are left with the uninspired second (and more usually third) hand fantasies of pop-Tarot writers.

It is also possible that the limitations of the PKT lie within the reader, rather than the book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarotbear
It's almost as if Waite wrote the book to throw you off track ... and it works rather well in that instance.
Do you have a specific instance in mind?


Vincent
Top   #16
Fulgour's Avatar
Fulgour  Fulgour is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 10 Jun 2004
Location: slumbrin in the windrows of the hours...
Posts: 7,828
Fulgour 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent
Boring or not, it is the essential primary source concerning the deck. Waite's symbolism cannot be understood without reference to it. If you are seriously interested in the RWS, then you have no choice. Otherwise you are left with the uninspired second (and more usually third) hand fantasies of pop-Tarot writers. It is also possible that the limitations of the PKT lie within the reader, rather than the book. Vincent
How do you know his book is essential?
Why can't the symbolism be understood without it?
Why don't I have a choice, even if I'm serious?
Who says other books are uninspired?
How come you call people names like "pop" writers?
What tells you a person is at fault ever? at all?
Top   #17
Vincent  Vincent is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 04 Dec 2003
Location: SA Australia
Posts: 353
Vincent 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wandking
I've found that RWS card color meanings closely match Masonic color symbolism. In The Key to the Tarot, Waite writes that Smith chose the colors.
Where does he say that?

He does say that;

The Tarot cards which are issued with the small edition of the present work, that is to say, with the Key to the Tarot, have been drawn and coloured by Miss Pamela Colman Smith...

But nothing about her choosing the colours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wandking
This next entry is a prime example of Waite atempting to mislead the reader in some writings he did on Freemasonry:

Not long after release of his deck, Waite became active in Masonry and published several books on the craft but maintained secrecy involving Masonic Symbols.
This is incorrect.

R.A. Gilbert, Waite's biographer writes;

"And so, on 19 September 1901, at the age of 43, Waite was initiated in Runymede Lodge No. 2430 at Wraysbury in Buckinghamshire...

This was eight years before the release of his deck, but long before 1901 Waite was interested in Freemasonry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wandking
Waite, writes, "There is no recognized scheme or science of colors in Masonry. Here and there in our ritual we find an 'explanation' for the use of a certain color, but this usually turns out to be merely a peg on which to hang a homiletic lecture about it, having little if any connection with the origins of its use.” According to Brother John Shroeder, a writer with the California Freemason On-Line, “Masonry employs symbols to teach moral lessons.” Not only Masonic lectures but also other writings clearly associate symbolism with color, especially blue and Shroeder goes on to say the “explanations are but the tip of the iceberg.” The Virginia Mentor's Manual contains a section saying that it is unknown where, when or why the name Blue Lodge originated but also points out that blue is a color of truth and fidelity, basic in teachings of the craft.. It also states that, "some find symbolism in the blue arch of the heavens and have urged that for a Freemason the virtues of friendship and benevolence must be as expansive as the heavens." It concludes with a reminder that the proper term is "Symbolic Lodge rather than Blue Lodge, although blue as a color and symbol is prominent in our teachings.”
As an example of Waite misleading anyone, this is spectacularly underwhelming. It does, in fact seem to bear out Waite's assertion rather than disprove it.

Bro. Shroeder also makes mention of the von Daniken-like theory of Stonehenge being a Masonic Temple and that the origin of Blue Lodge comes from the bluestones used in the inner ring of that structure.

Curiously, from the dawn of time he then fast forwards to the theories of Jung and reasons that perhaps an explanation can be found in them. Between these two Bro. Shroeder gives an enormous amount of possibilities each apparently being just as likely as any other.

So when Waite says that;

"There is no recognized scheme or science of colors in Masonry. Here and there in our ritual we find an 'explanation' for the use of a certain color, but this usually turns out to be merely a peg on which to hang a homiletic lecture about it, having little if any connection with the origins of its use.”

it seems that far from being misleading, he is spot on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wandking
Dr. W. J. Chetwode Crawley, a highly respected Masonic Historian, states, "The ordinary prosaic enquirer will see selection of blue as the distinctive color of Freemasonry.” The Grand Lodge of India teaches that deep blue symbolizes wisdom.
So... within Masonry does the colour blue signify the inner ring of Stonehenge, or does the answer lie within Jung's theories, or does it symbolise wisdom, or does it symbolise the vault of heaven, or does it come from the colour of the ephod, or perhaps like Waite says;

"There is no recognized scheme or science of colors in Masonry..."

Waite has to be read carefully if you wish to make any sense of him. He is not saying that any particular colour has no significance, only that there is no overall scheme. There was a "science of colors" in other secret organisations he had been involved with and it is this he is contrasting Masonry to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wandking
In an article titled, Talks on Freemasonry by Brother. Kenneth J. Tuckwood, District Chairman of Masonic Education offers good color references saying, “Colors have so large a place in customs of the craft that inevitably the question arises "did ancient symbolism inspire the colors of Masonry or were they chosen and the symbolism then found to fit them?" Henry Sadler, a noted Masonic authority writes," We must conclude, therefore that Freemasonry's colors were no more derived from ancient symbolism than were colors of the liturgical vestments of the Christian Church derived from those of the Jewish Priests.” Subsequent color associations are excerpts from Talks on Freemasonry.
For some reason you have excised this passage from the middle of that quote;

Many years ago a writer who went deeply into the question came to the conclusion that the English Grand Lodge, in choosing the colours of its clothing, was guided mainly by the colours associated with the Noble Orders of the Garter and the Bath. This idea is more or less confirmed by the late Henry Sadler, an authority universally respected, who said "Having looked at the matter from every conceivable point of view, I have failed to think of a more favourable explanation."

These people are agreeing with Waite, not contradicting him. They know the colour blue is significant, they are just not sure exactly what it signifies or where it originated.

Look, Waite can be criticised for many things in his writing, his faults don't have to be manufactured. If you want something misleading that he wrote, then the PKT is a fairly good start. Here is Bro. Gilbert's conclusion on his Masonic writing;

His besetting faults were a conscious refusal to accept his limitations as a historian, limitations that were inevitable, given his lack of academic training — and the sub-conscious recognition of them that led to an inordinate conceit and to constant belittling of his predecessors. Serious though these faults are they are not serious enough to deny him a place amongst the foremost masonic scholars... ...We too, perhaps, would be wise if we did him the courtesy of studying his work and recognizing its peculiar genius.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wandking
BTW, If knowing the Masonic color designations is of any importance to you, I'm willing to share what I know... just not in this forum since it's off-topic.
Sure... what does the colour blue signify?




Vincent
Top   #18
Lillie's Avatar
Lillie  Lillie is offline
Frog
 
Join Date: 12 Dec 2004
Location: Nowhere
Posts: 11,969
Lillie 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent
Boring or not, it is the essential primary source concerning the deck. Waite's symbolism cannot be understood without reference to it. If you are seriously interested in the RWS, then you have no choice. Otherwise you are left with the uninspired second (and more usually third) hand fantasies of pop-Tarot writers.

It is also possible that the limitations of the PKT lie within the reader, rather than the book.

Vincent

I have to say that I found that there washardly any explanation of his symbolism in the book.
That is one of the reasons I was so dissapointed with it.
One example of this.
He says that the stars in 'The Star' have 8 points each. But he does not say why. I would like to knowwhy 8 points is significant, but he won't tell me.
Another.
He does not even mention the flowers on the card 'Temperance'. I had not even thought of them, but, when reading the case book (that I cannot find right now) I am told that they are iris flowers. They are symbolic of the rainbow, because Iris is the greek (I think) rainbow goddess.
So. either he mentions significant symbols, but will not explain them; or he ignores significant symbols all together.
This is not very useful for someone who is wishing to comprehend the symbols he chose to use.
Top   #19
Vincent  Vincent is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 04 Dec 2003
Location: SA Australia
Posts: 353
Vincent 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulgour
How do you know his book is essential?
Because it is a primary source.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulgour
Why can't the symbolism be understood without it?
The same reason that Christianity cannot be understood without reading the Bible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulgour
Why don't I have a choice, even if I'm serious?
Try finding a book concerning the RWS specifically, that doesn't list the PKT in its bibliography. Why do you think those authors use it as a source?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulgour
Who says other books are uninspired?
A full list might take some time to compile. I suggest you do your own research.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulgour
How come you call people names like "pop" writers?
First, let me quote you;
"Jonathan Dee is like the People Magazine of Tarot."

Now, what do you think is so terrible about being labelled a "pop writer", and why is it any worse than being labelled the "People Magazine of Tarot"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulgour
What tells you a person is at fault ever? at all?
Evidence usually. What is your favourite method?


Vincent
Top   #20
Elsewhere on the Tarot Forum
Popular Tarot Boards
· Using Tarot Cards
· Talking Tarot
· Tarot Spreads
· Tarot Decks
· Rider-Waite-Smith

Special Interest Boards
· Astrology
· Crystals & Herbs
· Divination
· Lenormand
· Spirituality

Popular Tarot Threads
· Pet Peeves
· Timing of cards
· Interesting tarot pairs
· The Moon as how someone feels
· The World as feelings

More Tarot Threads
· Cards for certain events
· Tarot meanings for health
· List of Tarot Questions
· Can Tarot be Dangerous?
· List of Tarot Myths



Elsewhere on Aeclectic Tarot
· Tarot Cards & Reviews
· Free Tarot Readings
· Tarot eBooks
· Tarot Card Meanings

Copyright © 1996 - 2021 Aeclectic Tarot. All rights reserved. Privacy Policy. Contact us. About us.