the hermit, the wheel of fortune , and the justice card in double digits major arcana

HOLMES

ok let me share first of all,
1. this is an offshoot of my major tarot realizations thread.
2. this works for the rider system yet is interable for the exchange of justice for strenght of the marsiles and toth.
3. this works by the english numerals published on the front and on the basis of 0 to 21. (while some in the majors make it 1 to 22 0 i havne't worked from that basis )

this works by the subtraction, the addition of the double digits
example 15. makes 6,
example 15 makes 4 by virtue of 5-1=4
and parraral numbers of adding and subtraction of ten (thanks to the person who put that into my thread i have incorapted it )

the fact that number nine is every double digit as stated in tarot for yourself second edition and credited to tarot revelations.
it is though simply adding. 15 makes 6, 6 plus 9 makes 15.

and ten is every double digit by the idea of parreral numbers 10 plus 10 makes 20.
further example 10 plus 1, makes 11. plus 10 makes 21.

what needs to be exlained is how the number 11 is every double digit.
this works by 17 for example 7-1 makes 6. 6 plus 11 makes 17.

let us start with number 11.
it has the numbers of 2, 1, and 0 in it. (1-1=0)
so the justice card has fool, magican and high priestress in it. numericaly speaking.

yet it has also , fool adds the justice to make justice, magican adding in the wheel of fortune to make justice, and highpriestess with the aspects of hermit makes justice.

and moving on to 20.

20 has high priestress, wheel of fortune, and high prietress again as deeper number. (2-0 makes 2 i use the higher to least number to subtract)
it also has hermit plus justice makes the judgment. (interestly ideal there ) wheel of fortune adding itself makes judgment. and justice plus hermit makes 20.

does this work for 21 ? the world card ?
21. adding makes 3.
21, subtractiong makes 1.
and world card subractiong 10 makes 11, (11 makes high priestress)
so the world card has magican, highpriestress and emperess in it.

still apply the princples.
21. minues 9 gives us 12,
21 minues 10 gives us 11,
and 21 minues 11 gives us ten.

12 makes 3,
11 makes 2
10 makes 1.

so the world card has hanged man, justice and wheel of fortuned it by virtue of the rules of three (american pie joke there eheh) higher, extension, and inner travel.

by adding one goes higher into the cosmos. the higher lesson of the tarot.
by extension, or logical conclusion of one work in the material world they get the logical cycle of 10.
by inner travle or in this case approaching source, (if one sees source as 0) the deeper lesson of the tarot.

why would this be in using the tarot instead of the talking tarot ?
for one reasons i feel this will shed light on .
how to interprate one card. example in the outcome postion,
or in the daily medition postion ?

suppose one has the card of let say ,, brb i go pull a card hehe.
(i am making sure it is a minor card for i want to show how it can be incorpated into the minors as i feel the majors are the ether suit and are the basis for the manfestations in the four worlds)
(i am also reversing to show it can work for reversals cards )

8 of cups reversed in the outcome postion.

8 of cups to me means leaving an area when the time has come to emotional barreness. there is nothing here for me so i let go of all attachements.

here it is reversed though so i am denying leaving when the time is now, i could be too attached. for it is time to leave yet for i feel there is still more to resolve so that is how i am denying the lesson of eight of cups.

take into account theory that 8 of cups is strenght manifested in the minors arcana world of emotional levels.

the inner stenght is lacking for me to give up my attachements at this time for my lack of inner strenght is blocking me from moving into the next card.

take in account higher digits,

the 8 of cups is reversed for a as a deeper lesson the sun is reversed in the emotional world here for it shows i lack the inner strenght as i don't have faith in the univser to give me love in order to let go of these attachements i am stuck on.
the 8 of cups as reversed with the moon reversed as a logical extension. shows that if i don't move forward here letting of my attachments due to lack of innerstrenght and belief in myself, i will start to distrust my instincts and begin to decieve myself and look everywehre for deception.
the 8 of cups shows with the higher lesson of star reversed.
i am lacking faith to let go of my attachements emotionally as i am lackign faith in the universe and possible compassion due to it.

and finally
the 8 of cups reversed hints at the sun reversed due to justice reversed. i am not taking responsiblities for my own actions, which is causing me to distrust the universed which is causing me to have emotional attachments at this time due to lack of inner strenght. this is a inner lesson.
the 8 of cups reversed shows the wheel of fortune reversed as a logical extension reason for the hint at the moon in this card.
i am distrusting my instincts and having self deception due to back luck of the past and the fact the wheel of fortune could of dealt me too much at one time to take responsiblity and so i blamed the universe and secretly myself. this leads to the inner strenght for reasons of possible self hate (emotional world here ) due to not being strong enough which is saying i dont' love myself enough to let go of attachements here am i worthy of doign so ?
and the 8 of cups shows that with the star reversed , it happend as a inner lesson due to the hermit reversed.
i didnt' go inward to seek my power and wisdom so i couldn't reach up to the universed to seek power and love as well (power in terms of shamanic self power for example not in actual power but for some that could be the case ) and here leads me to the lack of inner strenght again due to not trusting my self in order to be alone with myself. and so that is why i have the emotional attachements in the world.
 

Moongold

I am a bit nervous with numbers but........

Greetings Holmes,

The scope of your thinking and creativity around the Tarot always amazes me. I feel as though I am in prep school compared with you. This is said with affection and respect. I am good at some things but numbers challenge me. I normally ground myself firmly before doing anything involved with numbers these days. So if I mess this comment up I know you will understand.

If I understand you correctly, this proposal is about seeing the unseen presence of cards within cards, meanings within meanings. Sort of like each card having different hidden factors according to the formula? I think I can understand the theory in terms of the Hermit, the Wheel of Fortune and the Justice cards.

So as well as the examples you have given us, it would work with other numbers too. 18 is the Moon card. So within Moon would be 9 (Hermit) and 10 (Wheel of Fortune). Or would we reduce the 10 to I (Magician)? Have I done this correctly? I can really see the associations of these cards with the Moon. If this case, Holmes I think it is a wonderful way of enriching the meanings of cards. And it is easy for someone like me to remember.

I am stuck with the minor Arcana though. Would 8 of Swords correspond with Strength in the thinking area and 8 of Pentacles correspond with Strength in the field of groundedness? That is a different way of looking at things for sure but it is also very appropriate. If you look at Mary Greer’s prime numbers concept in determining hidden factor cards, your system, if I understand it correctly, is simpler and much easier to remember.

Holmes, I am very new to this but find it fascinating, I hope I have understood you. I have to abandon all attachments and fright when I work with numbers and trust my higher power that I am doing it right. Please let me know if I have misunderstood you.

Blessings

Moongold
 

HOLMES

hail moongold

yes, this proposal helps one to understand or i hope to understand the tarot on a deeper level and also demystify some connections. :O)

ah the moon card. let us break it down.
18 the moon has hermit, strength and chariot in it.
1+8 equals nine.
18 subtract ten makes it 8 strength (rider system i should say other systems it would be the justice card )
8-1 equals 7 chariot.

as for reducing wheel of fortune one could reduce wheel of fortune to magican by adding and subtracting,
1 plus 0 makes one, and 1-0 makes one. however in the cast of ten or wheel of fortune,
wheel of fortune subtract 10 becomes 0.
and only using the rule of nine, here, wheel of fortune only has the hermit in it for it reduces the rest to 0 the source.
yet consider that the wheel of fortune is really 0 with a 1 in front of it. and becomes the rebirth of the cycle. and so it starts really from 0 to 9.
0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,
10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19
20, 21,

after 12 is where the system shines for relating as 11 minues 11 take us to 0 as well, but then 1-1 takes us to 0.

which means to me that wheel of fortune and the justice card (for some the strenght card ehhe) has strong relations to source.

yet 0 and 1 have strong relation to source.
example 1-1 gets us 0.. 2-1 takes us to one. just as 11 takes away 11 takes us to 0, and 10 takes away 11 take us to 0. yet 10 is really the second source cycle.

and the universe without the rules of wheel of fortune where would that leave us ? off the cycle of karma i think.

hermit becomes the moon by hermit energies.
strenght becomes the moon by wheel of fortune.
chariot becomes the moon by justice.
this is rider system (tranpose the approiate justice and strength for other systems)

I am stuck with the minor Arcana though. Would 8 of Swords correspond with Strength in the thinking area and 8 of Pentacles correspond with Strength in the field of groundedness? That is a different way of looking at things for sure but it is also very appropriate. If you look at Mary Greer’s prime numbers concept in determining hidden factor cards, your system, if I understand it correctly, is simpler and much easier to remember.

aye it would be for me using my elemental of spirit, mental, emotional, and physical,
strenght manifested in the spiritual world meaning spiritual strenght (wands. ) (and we know that wands means action so it would mean spiritual action as strenght)
strength manfiest in the mental world is mental strenght.
strenght manfiested in the physical world means phyisical strenght.

yet for me strenght means inner strenght and so becomes the best hope of spiritual, emotional, mental and phyisical strength as it means to us in our emotioanl worlds.

have no worries moongold.
for me it is simple adding, subtracting, not taking account spiritual numbers of numerology for example.
(for the tarotist they only need to know numerology up to 21 for though there are 78 cards, there is only 21 highest card, and the rest deal with prime numbers and elements)
 

Tarotphelia

Now what you need is a mechanical device for the numerologically impaired (like me!) that will reveal all the spectrums of possibility for each card .... maybe by turning a dial to the chosen card, all other hidden higher & lower meaning cards would be become visible simultaneously. Kind of like in those pop up books with the all the moving parts...

Warning- this is notice of copyright !

Tarotphelia
 

Rusty Neon

That's interesting, Holmes. I've seen two traditional ways in tarot literature of relating trumps:

(1) theosophic addition

(e.g., to relate the 13 Death to 4 Emperor by adding the adding the single digits in 13: 1+3 = 4)

(2) subtraction by 10

(e.g., to relate 13 Death with 3 Empress by subtracting 10 from the number of the trump: 13 - 10 = 3)

But the third idea you mention, that of subtraction by numbers other than 10, is new to me.

Cool!
 

skytwig

The Tarot Handbook

Have you read The Tarot Handbook by Angeles Arrien? She uses this very format in her 'dissection' of Tarot

For instance: in the the Hanged Man XII, she lists

Gifts:
Empress
3 cups
3 Wands
3 Discs
Universe XXI (2+1)

Challenges:
3 swords
The Hanged Man (1+2)

This widens the scope of understanding and leans toward the work we may need to do in our lives. Arrien really explores that and gives many ideas for conducting that work. You may like to get a copy if you haven't read it. (She does use the Thoth deck, but the principles can be applied to any deck.)

- skytwig
 

HOLMES

nay i didnt' read the book

yet,

looking at the information provide she come from the adding point which is one aspects of the system, the adding of ten, and the subtraction of face numbers is another aspects.

yet in the information provide she includes the minors aspects of the numbers while i focused on applying the major aspects to the minors.
if we can cross reference them, that would still be another dimension to the tarot.

for myself the hanged being 12 has,

1,by virute of 2-1
2 by parrel number of ten
3 by adding 2 plus 1.
giving the hanged man the deeper level of magican, the extension of high priestress, and higher level of emperess.

and going by the actual addition of the numbers. 1 to strenght (using the toth system ) to hanged man, 2 to wheel of fortune to get hanged, and 3 to hermit to get hanged man.

it becomes, the magican through strenght brings us to hanged man, the high priestress through wheel of fortune brings us to hanged man, and emperress through hermit brings us to hanged man

and hanged man plus hermit becomes the world card. ( and if you put the fool at the end of tarot arcana
*for me i put it at the beginning and the end*
hanged man plus wheel of fortune brings us to fool.

examining this from the 3 plus 9 to 12 plus 9 to become world card. hmm.

the person who becomes attuned to nature and at one with their emotions sees that they can take a new view on life by approaching it from an other angle

they realize that from the hanged man new view they can once again reach inward to their hermit self and become to know the higher wisdom of their true selves and use that knowledge to affect their world and begin to understand the cosmos.

--
the person who is beginnign the mysters of their selves and how their inuition works begins to expereince life throught he wheel of fortune, it could take us up and it could us down, but we end up at the hanged man by learning of the mysteries with in us we can see life as a new view ,

the hanged wheel understanding the karmic laws of the wheel of fortune, and see that is full of and downs as constanct as nature,
realize that there is a greater source and starts to walk the fool walk.
------

the magican with in us, the person who knows we can create our own world by our actions, realizes through the strength card (thoth system here ) that the true power to change our world comes from our inner strenght and that leads us to the hangedman to take a new view on life,

the hanged man being strenght again takes us off the major arcana but one could say ti takes us b ack to the source eheh.

12, plus 11 takes us to 23. off the major arcana,

looking now at the hanged man itself.
one is able to take a new view on life by realizing that there is stuff we have to understnad like the idea of sacfrice , and see how funny things are once they are over (ever notice when we are in the crissis the drama make it seem bigger then life , but when it is over, we are like so what ? it happens all the time, that is the hanged man view i think in a way )
we are able to take a new view by our emotions, our inuition, and our will.
how strange it is to hang upside ,, all that blood rushes to our head and we feel like we will explode that is why we must move to the next card of death.

(i think the sacfrice ideal in the hanged man brings us to prepare for the death ideal in itself.
look at the buckland romand tarot with the rabbit haning upside, down, that reminds me of tribal life, or any life where we eat animals or vegatible and see we waste nothing, sometiems we need to take a outside look at our lives to see what we are wasting. we begin to truly understand the deeper cycles of laws of nature here, as well 12, makes 3 emperess)
 

skytwig

True. Another aspect, for me, of the Hanged One card is the aspect, or virtue, of Acceptance, Letting Go, Beginners' Mind. Releasing my hold on something so I can see afresh and determine whether it IS something I should allow the Death card to complete in some way.

I think you would like the book I mentioned above because she is a Cultural Anthropoligist and incoporates many concepts about archetypes and psuchological factors.
 

Trogon

Whew!

Holmes... first off, I have to say that I really appreciate all the thought and work you've put in to these postings. However... most of this was waaaayyy over my head I'm afraid. For some reason, all this numerology type of playing with numbers has never made much sense to me. I know that a lot of people get a lot out of it, that they can manipulate the numbers associated with the Tarot cards and glean deeper and greater meanings to the cards, but I haven't been able to.

Now... having said that, I do have to say that I did get a couple of things from your discussion. One thing that did really stand out for me was the associating the Major Arcana numerically with the Minor Arcana. In your example, associating Strength (8) with the 8 of Cups. This has definitely given me something that I'm going to want to look into. I can see that I'm going to be looking at how the Magician associates with the Aces, High Priestess with the Twos, etcetera.

Now... back to the Major Arcana above 10 and playing with numbers... Let me see if I have this correct; pulling the first Major I come across in my RWS which has a double digit number - I found The Star - 17, so:

1+7 = 8 - Strength

17-10 = 7 The Chariot

7-1 = 6 - The Lovers


Is this how you're manipulating these numbers? If so, then are you saying that aspects of Strength, The Chariot and The Lovers are inherent in The Star? Hmmm... okay... looking these over, I guess I can see a connection between the inner strength of #8, the self control of #7 combined with love (#6) to bring healing of the self and finding of inner peace as usually indicated (to me) by The Star. Do I have this right? And if so, I don't really see how you keep getting The Hermit (#9) in the equation.

Still... you have presented some very interesting ideas. You've definitely given me some food for thought... Hmmmmmmm....
 

skytwig

It is possible to view the Strength card as a Passion card, as that deep well of out inner truth rising to the surface. Combining that with the Inner Union of our yin/yang and the movement of the Chariot (which, in many ways is driven by Passion), then we have the Gifts and the Outpouring of the Star card.

That is how I would see it, Trogon....... skytwig

The hermit, to me, is always a strong meditative, getting in touch with my inner Self - which would lead to that Passion wellspring!