if your intentions are good

The same as in law 'Ignorance is no defence'. Sounds harsh but its not meant to be.

Feelings of guilt can often be misplaced so without knowing the full story, its impossible to answer your question.

Certainly we've all done things quite innocently which we have later regretted. The trick is to learn, apologise if necessary, make amends if possible and know deep down, that you will never do it again then move on.

Holding onto guilt isn't healthy so work out what you did, from what motive and find a way to work through it so that you come out the other side a better person.

All my life my intentions were the best. That's the kind of person I am. But when I look back at the wreckage in my past---wreckage I caused, good intentions and all---I have to say that if I expected to be absolved for what I did, I'd be exhibiting the height of arrogance and insensitivity.

just wanted to say thanks for all the replies and sorry wasnt back to reply - going through really challenging time mentally n emotionally at the moment and trying to find a way through hard stuff like guilt, confusion, paranoia - but its all jumbled up - like each part of my life is jumbled up in my mind, can't explain, im positive that will work out well but its homework and learning class for me at the moment in the best interpretation vs being a masochist and giving self a hard time on the other

engaging with life and ones actions and effects face on is bloody hard especially for a lazy libra!!!



just got alot of backlog to work through - mirrored in reality by the mess in my house!!!! getting through housework helps sometimes sometimes it doesnt

and i have trouble with how much do you deal with by yourself and your own understanding and what you learnt from experience and how much you ask others for help with - i have learnt now and from previous times that you can't do it alone - you have to reach out to others at some stage


my dad told me something good once - when you are learning if you dont understand the lesson and go on to the next one you end up confused - thats alot of my life i realise - tried to learn too much too quickly and made a big fat mess LOL in my mind

the basis of my original question was at the time of the full pisces moon in my 7th house of relationships - which was a square aspect challenge to my natal moon in the 4th - i was worried about personal responsibility in relationships - others were saying to me ive caused this and that - i never meant to cause anything bad- i can only take on as much responsibility for what went wrong in as much as i wasnt honest with myself at the time and hence others or didnt understand what i was doing or didnt take things seriously enough - spontaneity and being yourself vs being aware of what is happening and having some control of your actions


best stop the rambling now

im going to read all your replies again slowly

star-lover said:

does that absolve you of anything wrong that happens after you say somethign or do something

guess im talking about guilt and how to deal with it

but why should it be guilt if you were honest

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Star-lover, I meant to reply to this earlier.

I find guilt to be pretty much useless and a waste of energy, except where it helps us to learn from our mistakes by keeping our minds on them for a period of time, enough to think through exactly where we went wrong. It's also helpful in that time to try to get in touch with any unconscious motive we might have had that caused the problem.

There are also times when honesty is not a virtue, when keeping one's thoughts to oneself is in order.

If you're feeling confused maybe it's because you haven't yet done enough self-examination to learn what you need to from the experience.

On the other hand, forgiveness is a tricky issue. It's healing for the one doing the forgiving, but not necessarily for the one being forgiven -- especially when it's not genuine.

I once took a course on dealing with difficult people that has stayed with me for years because of one simple statement provided by the instructor as a tool to use when confront by someone who clearly doesn't like me or isn't happy with something I've done:

"What you think of me is none of my business."

There are some times when we act with the best interests of all in mind, the highest intentions, or when we simply and humbly mean no harm. Others can be angry and even say they're not but still be seething under the surface, and maybe that's what you're feeling.

If you've examined all your motivations and learned as much as you can, and you're still feeling confused, maybe you're getting some "seething" vibes from that other person. Maybe it would help just to use that statement above as an affirmation:

"What you think of me is none of my business."

I hope this -- or something someone said here or somewhere -- is a help.

Nevada

star-lover said:

does that absolve you of anything wrong that happens after you say somethign or do something

guess im talking about guilt and how to deal with it

but why should it be guilt if you were honest

Click to expand...

Imho,you don't need to feel guilt if something unexpected happens as a result of something you do that caused someone pain or went wrong. We can't predict every second of the future even if we are readers. If you did not do it on purpose than you have nothing to feel guilty about.

BUT, again imho, it's important to care how our actions affect others. It may have been just an unfortunate accident and things did not work out as you expected, BUT if you hurt someone and you know your hurt them (whether accidentally or not) you owe them an apology. You may know that you did not mean it, but they don't know that until you tell them.

And once they forgive you, that is what heals any guilt and makes the issue over.

As for honesty, yes honesty is a good thing and I would not avocate being dishonest in your dealings with others. But honesty also has to be tempered with tact. While you don't have to hide the truth or lie, it is important HOW you phrase things and how you word things when talking to others about things they are sensitive about. The way you word the same truth can either lead to a bonding with another person or a pretty nasty fight.

If you hurt someone because you did not choose your words (the way you told your truth) sensitively enough, then yes imho that was something done wrong. I am not saying guilt, but it's something you need to stop and think about and learn from. We are none of us perfect, but we need to see when we made a mistake and learn from it.

To fix things, try to fix them with the injured party, see their side apologise...and work things out. If you can't talk with them, then accept that is how things went, learn what you can to prevent it from happening again and then move on.

Those are my views.

Babs

SunChariot said:

And once they forgive you, that is what heals any guilt and makes the issue over.

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I think it is dangerous to condition your well-being and your sense of guilt on someone else's forgiveness - because it puts you in the hands of someone who might not be as forgiving as you are. Of course, there are actions that are so cruel and damaging to others that they demand both the self-forgiveness of the person who committed them, and the forgiveness of the victim: this would be the case, for example, where there is child abuse, rape or other such attacks. But in most interpersonal cases, issues of guilt and forgiveness become part of a power struggle: "you did X to me, I won't forgive you so I have some hold over you by controlling your guilt". This inevitably builds up resentment and counter-accusations, locking the parties in a feud, a victim-perpetrator cycle. In order to free yourself from this kind of power struggle, it's necessary to break the cycle. If you happen to be in the "perpetrator" role, it means forgiving yourself, letting go of guilt and moving on. Waiting on the other to forgive - a forgiveness that is always conditional, and can be revoked - just perpetuates the cycle. Once the cycle is broken - THEN you often find that the one who has taken on the "victim" role can and does forgive and move on himself. And since in this kind of relationship, the "victim" and "perpetrator" can switch, both must do this on their own, if they are to be free, and make the relationship more healthy or move away from it if that's the right thing for one or both of them to do. But in any case, you can't do that by attaching conditions to either forgiveness or self-forgiveness and making them dependent on another person.

Fudugazi said:

I think it is dangerous to condition your well-being and your sense of guilt on someone else's forgiveness - because it puts you in the hands of someone who might not be as forgiving as you are. Of course, there are actions that are so cruel and damaging to others that they demand both the self-forgiveness of the person who committed them, and the forgiveness of the victim: this would be the case, for example, where there is child abuse, rape or other such attacks. But in most interpersonal cases, issues of guilt and forgiveness become part of a power struggle: "you did X to me, I won't forgive you so I have some hold over you by controlling your guilt". This inevitably builds up resentment and counter-accusations, locking the parties in a feud, a victim-perpetrator cycle. In order to free yourself from this kind of power struggle, it's necessary to break the cycle. If you happen to be in the "perpetrator" role, it means forgiving yourself, letting go of guilt and moving on. Waiting on the other to forgive - a forgiveness that is always conditional, and can be revoked - just perpetuates the cycle. Once the cycle is broken - THEN you often find that the one who has taken on the "victim" role can and does forgive and move on himself. And since in this kind of relationship, the "victim" and "perpetrator" can switch, both must do this on their own, if they are to be free, and make the relationship more healthy or move away from it if that's the right thing for one or both of them to do. But in any case, you can't do that by attaching conditions to either forgiveness or self-forgiveness and making them dependent on another person.

Click to expand...

You're right that was an oversimplification as I phrased it. Probably cause of my age which is clearly showing here, things were different back then and it was a given you would be forgiven in the time I was brought up, 50 years ago!

So, I will amend that. I still think if you hurt someone accidentally (hopefully not purposely) you owe them an apology. Yes it is their choice to accept it or not. If they want to start a power struggle...well you can try one more time and tell them you value peace and ask how you can create it with them.

If the don't want it, well there is no more you can do. You did your best and again there is no guilt because you know you did your best to fix the situation. If the other does not want peace, well that is their baggage and it stems from way before you did whatever it was you did that angered them. To me, that's when you just have to let it go and sometimes even let the relationship go.

Because if someone is more into power struggles than finding a peaceful solution, that is just not a healthy relationship to be in. Especially if the hurtful act was an accident, in which case it was the fault of the person who did it in the first place. Accidents happen, and they are not planned and others need to see that. If they won't understand that, then you did your best ...and let go of any negative feelings.

Personally I would not get into any power struggles with someone. I would try calmly again to explain what I want to create that is positiive between us. If they start making accusations or whatever I would tell them I can see they are too stressed to discuss it calmly now and I will give them a break and talk to them again when they are ready to talk in a way that will help us settle this. Then walk away. A power struggle takes two people. If the other refuses to play the game it doesn't work. I'm personally not in interested playing that kind of game. Once you go there, there are no winners in that game. Everyone inevitablely loses.

There are some more of my opinions....



Babs

SunChariot said:

I still think if you hurt someone accidentally (hopefully not purposely) you owe them an apology. Yes it is their choice to accept it or not. If they want to start a power struggle...well you can try one more time and tell them you value peace and ask how you can create it with them.

If the don't want it, well there is no more you can do. You did your best and again there is no guilt because you know you did your best to fix the situation. If the other does not want peace, well that is their baggage and it stems from way before you did whatever it was you did that angered them. To me, that's when you just have to let it go and sometimes even let the relationship go.

Because if someone is more into power struggles than finding a peaceful solution, that is just not a healthy relationship to be in. Especially if the hurtful act was an accident, in which case it was the fault of the person who did it in the first place. Accidents happen, and they are not planned and others need to see that. If they won't understand that, then you did your best ...and let go of any negative feelings.

Personally I would not get into any power struggles with someone. I would try calmly again to explain what I want to create that is positive between us. If they start making accusations or whatever I would tell them I can see they are too stressed to discuss it calmly now and I will give them a break and talk to them again when they are ready to talk in a way that will help us settle this. Then walk away. A power struggle takes two people. If the other refuses to play the game it doesn't work. I'm personally not in interested playing that kind of game. Once you go there, there are no winners in that game. Everyone inevitablely loses.

Click to expand...

Very well put, Babs. I would say that is the case even when you do something that hurts someone else, which you knew ahead of time might hurt them - but not something that is objectively "bad" - for instance, if you decide to take a job far away from your family, or separate from your spouse or lover. You can be sure they will feel pain at your departure, but at the same time, the action is not wrong in and of itself. But you apologise for the pain caused. If your mother or your lover then try and lock you into guilt to manipulate you, then, as you say, you can still choose peace and not allow that guilt to control you and draw you into a power struggle. I like the way you explained it as peace. Peace between two or more people tends to be misunderstood, because a lot of people will give in to another's guilt-inducement for the sake of not having quarrels or feeling guilty - not realising they are getting even deeper into a power struggle, and further away from peace.

I think the best way to alliveiate guilt is to do what you can to make right what you did wrong. If you cant, do something else to balance.

(And I DONT mean go to the confessional box in church)

i just found out a friend i was all open and honest to and worried about all this that i did him harm was the one that shafted me by blackening my name behind my back and taking no responsibility for his part of any drama

bit shocking to find out you were trying to be really good and someone was shafting you at the same time and making you doubt yourself

i never blackened his name or spread lies - he did and i found out through mutual friends

to think i was the one causing him trouble as he says

he hates me and has called me names accused me of stalking PMSL - was always HIM who came back to me - what a liar

i told him there is a fine line between love and hate and he crossed it - i didnt
and im proud of that because whatever he said i didnt mind i could never hate him

we had the most awful nasty fight

he is not going to learn the lesson he doesnt want to but one day he will
im sorry sunchariot/sophie/raven for not answering you personally - going through another stupid drama - and raven i feel no guilt after what i learnt today omg - at least he apologised in the end - should never let things get to such stages as they are harder to fix