Letīs talk about nudity...


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Quote:
Originally Posted by cirom
I also do know for a fact that nudity can potentially hurt sales as well, as many people contacted me prior to ordering the ToD to clarify if there was any nudity in it. Indicating that it might be an issue for them.
Depends on what you want the deck for of course, I don't have a problem with nudity when reading for myself or a very close friend, sometimes it's even useful depending on the question, but not for strangers really or family...

Babs
Top   #101
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I would also like to point out that "nudity" in the sense of visible female nipples (because let's face it, this is what it boils down to in most cases, right?) is very much a non-issue where I live. Which is to say that a lot of the nudity issues are culturally-specific.

I'd totally use a deck with a few naked female breasts in it to read for a minor or for my almost 70-year-old mother (assuming the deck wasn't emphatically "sexy" in general, and also assuming the nudity made some sort of sense in terms of the card meaning). I figure if similar images/poses can also be seen in what is generally considered "classic pieces of fine art," it's fine to use for all ages...
Top   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat*
I would also like to point out that "nudity" in the sense of visible female nipples (because let's face it, this is what it boils down to in most cases, right?) is very much a non-issue where I live. Which is to say that a lot of the nudity issues are culturally-specific.

I'd totally use a deck with a few naked female breasts in it to read for a minor or for my almost 70-year-old mother (assuming the deck wasn't emphatically "sexy" in general, and also assuming the nudity made some sort of sense in terms of the card meaning). I figure if similar images/poses can also be seen in what is generally considered "classic pieces of fine art," it's fine to use for all ages...
That's likely true. It might depend on where you live. From what you are saying things are not as open over here at all.

Babs
Top   #103
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I just popped on for a second, but have spent the last hour or so reading this whole thread, and now I have so much I want to say that... well, I just hope I'll be forgiven if I don't make much sense

First of all, I think an issue people might have with male nudity (and this was touched on briefly early in the thread) is the percieved threat of it. Women's nudity is might be considered seductive or alluring: if a woman wants to have sex, she <i>has</i> to make the man want it, too. On the other hand, if a man wants to have sex, he does not necessarily need the woman's consent, and rape is a much more violent, terrifying thing than seduction has ever been.

This does not mean that both forms are not beautiful, I want to make that clear, but there is that underlying phychology that can be projected on to the image, which is my explanation for why female nudity is so much more prevailent in the tarot cards.

That being said, I agree that there are some images in the non-erotic decks that really do take things too far. The Robin Wood deck has been mentioned because the women all look uncomfortable in their nudity, and I agree. It completely detracts from the message of freedom and ease that the nudity is supposed to represent. It was also mentioned that it is just as easy to portray the message of spiritual freedom with gauzy dresses, and I completely agree. For the most part, I would prefer that to be the case, especially with the star card, which is often a naked woman half-sitting in a rather provocative position that doesn't at all fit the meaning (in my mind).

There was a comment that the partically clad images are more alluring. This is true, when refering to sexual themes (in my opinion) but I prefer it simply because it is so much less blatant and in-your-face. Also, it detracts from any thoughts one might have about why the artists felt a need to take the symbolism to that extent (ie, the horny comic-book artists mentioned previously).

On the other hand, I LOVE Brian Froud's Faerie Oracle (I know we're talking about tarot cards, but the issue comes down to the same thing: there are a great deal of beautiful (multi-sized/shaped, btw) women, many of them partially or fully naked, and their male counterparts are (with I think just two exceptions) anthropomorphic, skrawny, or just androdenous. It's unballanced, yes, but it's not provocative or alluring, and as a whole the deck <i>feels</i> balanced, despite the visual evidence to the contrary...

But back to the topic at hand.

I also wanted to comment on the idealized forms seen in the tarot cards. I don't have a problem with this. Maybe the artists did it deliberately because of a narrow view of beauty, but I don't see it like this. In my mind, the images we see in the cards are the way those depicted in the cards see themselves, and the message I take is that, whatever these people may actually look like, they ARE beautiful, and they recognize that in themselves. Obviously, the fact that the cards do portray such a narrow visual reference for beauty does not say much about our society (the day societies come to honour beauty above all else is the day that society dies), I recognize the symbollism of it. Would I like to see other forms of beauty in the cards? Certainly! (That's one reason I think Froud's oracle is so dear to me) But having just the one form doesn't detract from my readings of the cards or keep me up at night.

I'm sure I had more to say, but those were my main points, and now I am going to go to bed.

P.S. the dove commercials were well recieved here in Canada, too, as far as I know.
Top   #104
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There is another consideration for depicting the human form as beautiful ideals, as opposed to showing a more realistic representation of all our variations. Wether we like it or not we are influenced by appearance, we can and should look beyond to the preverbal beauty within, but that secondary level follows from getting to know someone, whereas appearance is immediate and the first level as it were. We scan and make assumptions based on looks, some is artificial yes, concepts of beauty vary from era to era culture to culture, but some is also instinctive. As a species we are programmed to react to it and be attracted to it. And in contrast we are also programmed to not be attracted to forms that vary too much from the considered norm. Which may in the past have been natures way of indicating to us that that particular person may not be the best partner with which to pass on our genes.

So in other words art and advertising over the years is'nt responsible for generating this "shallowness" if thats what one considers it to be, its merely used it. Indeed so much is this the norm, that exceptions to it i.e. Frouds creatures, or other artworks that depict blatant variations from the "norm" are notable for that very reason.

So to my point, accepting that there is a perceived "norm" to the the human form, were an artist to introduce a noticeable exception of that for any given cards in a tarot deck, I think there would be a risk of it calling too much attention. Beyond any other meaning one might also be asking questions such as, why is that Queen exceptionally that much taller thinner, uglier, fatter than the others. In other words people will try and read more into that assuming there is a significance to it as opposed to it merely being an attempt at politically correct diversification.
This isn't an opinion exactly, just a thought.
Top   #105
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I just prefer my men clothed preferably in full armour. leaves more to the imagination.
Top   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raeanne
Hi all,
If male nudity becomes as acceptable as female nudity I only hope that the magazines, movie producers, etc don't 'over-endow' the men to the same extent as women have been. Now, THAT would be laughable!
yes men don't need to be over inflated, they do that themselves....

if its nudity it needs to be equal, and not gratuitous, am not looking for porn cards...but i do believe that nudity does symbolize a few things (i.e freedom and vulnerability )
Top   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amashelle
Women's nudity is might be considered seductive or alluring: if a woman wants to have sex, she <i>has</i> to make the man want it, too. On the other hand, if a man wants to have sex, he does not necessarily need the woman's consent, and rape is a much more violent, terrifying thing than seduction has ever been.
I understand your reasoning, however, when I think of a rapist I don't think of someone who is completely naked. I think of someone who probably tears the clothes of his victim and only undresses himself so much as is necessary to do the deed.
This is just my concept of rapist - none of this is personal experience on my part.
I think a male nude can also show vulnerability.

Quote:
It was also mentioned that it is just as easy to portray the message of spiritual freedom with gauzy dresses, and I completely agree. For the most part, I would prefer that to be the case, especially with the star card, which is often a naked woman half-sitting in a rather provocative position that doesn't at all fit the meaning (in my mind).
I was thinking of this...one of my favourite cards is the Star card in the Druidcraft tarot, which is a beautiful naked woman, and I think the reason this card works for me is that she looks peaceful and serene and at ease with herself. Her pose is not provocative, because there is noone there to provoke - as far as she knows.
The card would have been totally spoilt if she had looked at us and pouted.

All this is just how I feel it - and I learn from this thread that this is a very personal subject for most of us with many different ways of looking at things
Top   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfSpirit
...one of my favourite cards is the Star card in the Druidcraft tarot, which is a beautiful naked woman, and I think the reason this card works for me is that she looks peaceful and serene and at ease with herself. Her pose is not provocative, because there is noone there to provoke - as far as she knows.
The card would have been totally spoilt if she had looked at us and pouted
Yes. I agree. Plus the fact that somehow, the artist has managed to integrate her into the landscape. She is definitely a part of nature in all its forms and contours. I have no special urge to look at naked women in tarot cards, but this is one of the few cards where one looks beyond the body somehow at her presence as a part of the landscape. As part of the whole. I love this card.

Like most here, I donīt mind nudity. Ive said before (and maybe I just keep repeating myself!), but my issue is that Im perfectly happy with cards to have no nudity whatsoever, Im also perfectly happy for cards to be entirely nude, what I hate is this dated 1950s hinterland where only female nudity is deemed worth representing and men are ludicrously dressed up to the nines because male nudity isnīt culturally acceptible somehow. Or weīre not considered "ready" for this yet. Far easier to churn out tried and tested formulas.

Good to see this thread is still provoking some interesting thoughts...
Top   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Fanu
what I hate is this dated 1950s hinterland where only female nudity is deemed worth representing and men are ludicrously dressed up to the nines because male nudity isnīt culturally acceptible somehow. Or weīre not considered "ready" for this yet.
Or when both are naked, and you see women from the front but they will only show men from the back. It should be more equal, imo anyway.

Babs
Top   #110
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