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Interesting replies...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiccardoLS
All people young and beautiful... they are symbols/auratic abstractions of concepts. For instance they are not "a woman fighting a lion", but they are "strength".
Or should they portray/illustrate reality? Then we should have old and young, ugly and beautiful, etc...
And this is just not related to genre. Should people live in an idealized world, in time, like the fake-medieval we all know from the RWS. Or should they live in present reality (or in any other defined time)?
"Nudity" cames as much from a certain comic book approach, but also it cames from classical and renaissance art. I think that on the subject, there is a lot to say. Gender balance is not just in nudity, but in symbols and energies, and many other things.
How does it reflect on reading?

ric
Mmm...Not sure I buy the Renaissance thing. There were theories and contexts about human form and times have now changed. Bellori (post-Renaissance admittedly) believed that it was the job of the artist to perfect the imperfections and I would argue that it would be wise not to try and create "perfection" or "idealised" bodies. I suppose what weīre talking about here are images that people can relate to.

What I find odd is not the explicit portayal per se, but how misguided it seems.

In comic books, probably the majority of consumers are male so it makes sense.

In male mags, the majority of consumers are male so it makes sense.

But isnīt the target public here a bit different? Yet it surpries me to hear people say "O Im female and hetero and would much rather look at the naked female form". I personally see this as just how conditioned we are by it and the naked male form is just not part of the equation.

For centuries people have been told that beauty = naked female. But interestingly, the 17th Century (and hetero and married) painter Rubens believed that true beauty could only be found in the male form. Itīs just a question of what weīre used to. I like Sinductionīs example of Ciroīs Devil card, and I remember at the time there were posts about how many women liked this card. And we donīt even see anything. Itīs just a general smouldering, sexual mood.

O and ric, love the Golden Dawn deck, but Im not sure how "present reality" the buttocks of the Star card are.
Top   #21
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Yep, but...
(I know I will be sorry of having stepped in ^_^)...
You are talking about decks that are "explicitely" Sexual decks. So - yes - they sort of tun women into sex objects. But... if you buy a deck called Manara Tarot, what do you really expect?
Casanova is totally different. Well, the deck comes from the memories of Casanova, and necessarely (as it wanted to be a sexual deck) empahsized the "seductor/sex" part of the story. And even if the deck is definitely unbalanced I think I like it. Even if the women are idealized (the same you see in ANY hollywood movie. Wonder why Scarlett Joansonn is more popular than Toni Collette?), they have a very powerful and distinct personality. I would not (opinion) see them as object. Not at all. By the way, if you look at the deck you will see many "masks". Nudity and masks... (there was some purpose in it ^_^). And look at the Death card!
IF you want a natural looking sexual deck, you may journey through the Decameron Tarot. You will find a totally different take on the subject.

I think the main question is "what do you use the deck for"? Decks with a strong sexual content tend to be very specific. And I think it's fair that they are different, and is normal that many of them are unbalanced. There is a graphical reason (not just the breast-genitals things, but also the see/not see thing that really suit more females than males).
But can't we see that - in our society - the history of sexual topic is definitely unbalanced toward woman sex? Just look at the actor gala in Hollywood. Actress have scant evening dress, while actors have tuxedos. Is that balanced? Yet is absolutely normal, isn't it?
I don't think that any of us would accuse "you are sexist" a couple going out to a restaurant for their anniversary, with her wearing an evening dress with cleavage, and the back naked, while he is totally buttoned up with a tie.

ric
Top   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Fanu
But isnīt the target public here a bit different? Yet it surpries me to hear people say "O Im female and hetero and would much rather look at the naked female form".
Have you ever bougth a woman magazine? Like Vogue, or Elle...
It is TOTALLY sexual ^_^ Just in the latest year you are beginning to see some naked/sexual male pictures ina dvertisments. And they are woman magazines.

Then.. I agree that sometimes this is annoying. But you forget that Tarot is a cultural artifcat. It's part of the deal.
And I agree that when tehre is an underlined, subtle, sexuality is always geared toward women. It is not good, but (and believe me, I have tougth about that a lot: see the Manga Tarot, for instance) I don't see how to change that, until culture changes on his own.
Top   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiccardoLS
Have you ever bougth a woman magazine? Like Vogue, or Elle...
It is TOTALLY sexual ^_^ Just in the latest year you are beginning to see some naked/sexual male pictures ina dvertisments. And they are woman magazines(
Yes. Isnīt this what I was thinking would be a good thing? The target public is female or gay male and there are more naked/male pictures, and - yes - "they are womensīmagazines" How it should be...
Top   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Fanu
here are more naked/male pictures,
There are SOME naked/male pictures. Definitely a minority. And just in the last few years (3 years I would say).
Top   #25

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiccardoLS
Yep, but...
(I know I will be sorry of having stepped in ^_^)...
You are talking about decks that are "explicitely" Sexual decks. So - yes - they sort of tun women into sex objects. But... if you buy a deck called Manara Tarot, what do you really expect?
I don't buy decks like the Manara, but LeFanu asked us for our opinions
And I have to say there is very little in Hollywood that I would classify as normal that is really not my standard to go by at all – maybe least of all for tarot decks.

For me, Robert Place (Alchemical) and Brian Williams (Minchiate) have drawn beautiful nudes of both sexes, I would not call that erotic art though.
And I recently acquired the Mythen Tarot by Voenix, subtitled “eine Reise durch die Welt der erotischen Sagen” (transl. – journey through the world of erotic tales). It is sort of comic strip art, with both male and female nudity . I do find this deck kind of fun and I am actually looking forward to trying if I can read with this deck.
I am afraid other erotic decks are lost on me because I find them too unbalanced. Just my two cents
Top   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firemaiden
I am a woman, I am heterosexual. I love looking at beautiful drawings of women nude. I have no interest at all in seeing pictures of naked men.
same for me. naked men (explicit pictures of) tend to inspire laughs in me, not a sense of awe or admiration or glory.

I don't have any of the hardcore decks, they are just artifacts of erotic art to me, I sure don't feel like tarot is the primary motivation for their creation or their main concern, and I already have plenty of explicit erotic art books to enjoy.

I like all the nude female art in the decks I do have, but neither do I tend to be attracted by what I'd call pin-up decks. There are a few that would fall in that category, and, again, it's a combination of things about them that turn me off of those decks.
Top   #27
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I don't go for the out and out hardcore decks either, but I'm totally into pinups.
Top   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfSpirit
And the women don't have natural breasts, they are huge breasts pointing upwards.
Yeah, isn't that great!! I love looking at this kind of breast...

Conversely, if there were a lot of down-pointing pendulous breasts, there is NO WAY that I would buy the deck.

Bye the way, I much prefer the Lo Scarabeo type of women to those drawn by American Artists, Robin Wood, or Alexandra "Wheel of Change" Genetti. These American nudes look like they have a sense of "pudeur" -- they look so embarrassed to be naked, that it is embarrassing to look at them. But the Italian nudes look like they have been undressing for artists at least since Ancient Rome, but maybe some of them remember ancient Greece.

One of my favorite Lo Scarabeo partial nudes is the Queen of Pentacles on the Dürer deck. That card is pretty evil.. (in the nicest sort of way)

Oh, and if you want to see a male nude worth his salt, there is the wonderful satyr on the Lovers card in the LS Dürer tarot (Gaudenzi), not to mention the Fool who is bearing his bottom, and in passing also revealing his plumbing.

If you want to see some ordinary-looking people taking off their clothes, you can admire the Decameron tarot. There are plenty of non-photogenic types doing naughty naughty things; luckily the deck has a pointy sense of humour and great colours, otherwise it might just be 'yugly".
Top   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sphinxmoth
same for me. naked men (explicit pictures of) tend to inspire laughs in me, not a sense of awe or admiration or glory.
I doubt if explicit pictures of naked women inspire a sense of glory in men. A sense of horny, more likely
Top   #30

 





 



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