Is This Legal?

GreenMoonBeam

Elven said:
I have been thinking over this for a while, and it was about something the person said - that he is one of hundreds if not thousands that are taking advantage of this unregulated and illegal situation. Tarot is big business - as a creative artist and as a professional reader - Tarot generates money, and if it didn't it wouldnt have escalated as it has over the years.

I wonder then how much money has been lost from the pocket of the creator of Tarot (and even Oracles) in illegal dealings from the internet?
I would estimate it would be considerable to some, and less to others, but still I think it would be calculable.
Over the course of 10 years it maybe the cost of producing another deck.

To give an example, there are 2 major industrys which are now aware of the cost from downloading copied material - one is the publishing industry (which recently has some of the major publishers putting their pubications on their own ebook sites) and the other is SAG - the Screen Actors Guild (threatening to strike over re-runs and DVD percentage rights). The redistribution of creative works without payment to the creator and/or copyright holder is out of control. Money is being lost, and it is vast enough sums for the big guns to take action.

Here at AT, someone gives the heads up about an illegally used deck (most related issues are copyright) and the amount of work which goes into contacting the creators and those who are vulnerable to this illegal activity is huge.

I am wondering then, when, how, or will there ever be something like an Alliance of Tarot Creators which, as a group, can confront any issues which come up as a copyright concern with the internet and pirated CD's?

Most of the decks I have seen being used or distributed illegally which infringe copyright basically come from a reasonably small pool of people and business'.
Would it not be better to voice your concerns as a collective instead of having to individually tackle each and every heads-up which comes to your attention?
As far as I can see, this is situation is getting worse, and without some form of semi-official warning, these pirates will keep doing this. This thread is a classic example of the sophisticated programming which allows this to take place. Though there is no sophistication about the person selling it ;)
Is it a cause worth considering?
Or is it all just too hard?
Just some thoughts
Cheers
Elven x
It would be better NOT to ignore priracy and have a collective. Unity will
be better: look at what has happened so far just through this thread. jmho
Cheats should never prosper.
 

sourcerer

On digital decks

This is slightly offtopic but Imust say that, and maybe it's just me, I have bought decks because I liked the scans. Computer programs are all fine and stuff (and I should be used to them writing them for a living) but they simply can't beat having the actual deck in hand to work with.

So people might actually see and use decks they would never have used and end up buying the original to really work it.

And if they didn't know the deck in the first place, how likely would it be for them to sell it anyhow?

And the people that use digital decks regularly likely wouldn't have bought the deck either as - how could they use those 78 pieces of cardboard on their screen? I doubt many people would actually scan a deck they purchased (although I know I did it myself for study purposed, it's hard to bring your decks on the train....but I needed no visual tarot or orphalese for that).

Just saying that a downloaded deck is not a lost sale by definition, it might be no loss or even a win.

Kaj
 

Aulruna

sourcerer said:
This is slightly offtopic but Imust say that, and maybe it's just me, I have bought decks because I liked the scans. Computer programs are all fine and stuff (and I should be used to them writing them for a living) but they simply can't beat having the actual deck in hand to work with.

So people might actually see and use decks they would never have used and end up buying the original to really work it.

And if they didn't know the deck in the first place, how likely would it be for them to sell it anyhow?

And the people that use digital decks regularly likely wouldn't have bought the deck either as - how could they use those 78 pieces of cardboard on their screen? I doubt many people would actually scan a deck they purchased (although I know I did it myself for study purposed, it's hard to bring your decks on the train....but I needed no visual tarot or orphalese for that).

Just saying that a downloaded deck is not a lost sale by definition, it might be no loss or even a win.

Kaj

Kaj... copyright does not only cover the primary form in which a product was created, but also everything derived from it.
E.g. my publisher has published calendars based on my books, and both the illustrator and I of course got money for that. My contract includes the rights to all media, so if someone makes a movie or a .pdf from it ... right holders still have to be reimbursed.

So while the sales of actual decks in card format may not suffer, authors/artists/creators still lose out -- essentially, someone else is making money from YOUR work!!
 

gregory

Yes - that is my issue with THIS product rather than sites which just have pix for the hell of it (I gather taroteca does make money from the work of others, so I withdraw my "they are OK" comment earlier.)

It is theft, plain and simple. If someone uploaded a book you had written and charged for it, I bet this would not be OK with you, sourcerer ?
 

firecatpickles

Yes. The issue is that someone is profiting illegally from the work of others. The issue of "intellectual rights" and who has control of what has been an issue for quite some time.
 

sourcerer

Hmmm, true

Funny, as I mentioned I write software for a living (video games) and this aspect of piracy never occured to me - that they are making money off my work....which is indeed a very valid point.

I am not condoning what this guy does at all, just wanted to say that sometimes it actually leads to a sale of the deck instead. I checked the size of the cards that come with the program and they are quite small and blurry - I know I'd sure want the original deck (not to mention the companion book).

But yes, I now see the point about them making money off it.

Kaj
 

Pagan X

Kaj, while it is true it may lead to a sale of the physical deck, it's also a lost sale *to the creator* of a digital edition of the deck.

If no digital edition currently exists, it is a disincentive for any company to make one, provided the pirated version is sufficiently competitive.

It also sets a legal precedent that weakens any moves by the copyright holder and licensees to protect the property legally in any form.

It discourages artists from posting works in progress for fear of being ripped off.

It perpetuates the idea that "easily copied" is worthless in value, not worth paying for, not worth seeking permission.

It makes "easily copied" into "easily degraded" and inferior product can harm the original's reputation.

It encourages others to do likewise.

And so on. Artists and small publishers have it tough enough as it is.

It also winds up burning the very resource that is so desired. Take the programmer of a good Tarot program. If that programmer obtains Tarot deck artwork in a, shall we say, minimal effort fashion, that programmer is creating all these disincentives for anyone to create digital versions of Tarot art. Hence, over time, the only decks available for the program's use will be schlocky decks, plus the developer cannot take advantage of the existing fan base for specific artists or the tarot community as a whole. The program won't be reviewed or recommended here on Aeclectic; it may even be knowingly blacklisted.

If the programmer, on the other hand, were to contact artists, ask permission, give credit, pay or arrange some trade etc. then the programmer is building the resource and gaining a lot in terms of practical help, feedback on the program, publicity, and so forth. It can create opportunities for the maker of a great program to be picked up by a publishing company or recommended for other game type contracts.

Doing the right thing often is the best business solution. The *profitable* business solution.
 

sourcerer

Thanks

Hi PaganX,

Thanks for the insightful post...I shall not mention my (former) philosophy about the ripped off decks again.

Let's get back to topic...is it legal?

There's little doubt about that - it isn't, and purchasing the program would only encourage the maker to continue.

I am all in favor for a tarot software that will try to work with the deck authors though :eek:)

Kaj
 

gregory

ETA (as it went in the crash) - almost all the decks are gone from his pages now. RESULT !!!!