A lost Gringonneur/Estensi copy?


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A lost Gringonneur/Estensi copy?


Debra sent me a link to some photos of what appear to be a couple of 18th or 19th century hand drawn cards.
The one on the right, with the sword, appears to be a copy of the Valet d'epee from the Gringonneur/Estensi deck in the Bibliotheque Nationale.

17 cards survive from the Gringonneur/Estensi deck.
16 majors, and le Valet d'epee from the minors.
Current thinking dates them to the mid-15th century, Venice. Probably.

But none of them look like the other of our hand drawn later copies.

So, the big question here...
Is this an old copy of a now lost Gringonneur/Estensi card?

According to Kaplan, the Gringonneur/Estensi deck was bequeathed to the King in 1711, along with other prints and drawings from the M. de Gaignieres collection, an assistant tutor to the grandchildren of Louis XIV.
I'd like to know if we can verify that the deck consisted of 17 cards at that time, which would indicate that these drawings would have had to have been made prior to 1711, when the deck could have been bigger.

It's hard to date the drawings, or authenticate them without actually handling them in person.
Of course, the drawings could be a total fake.
Or, if the drawings are old, the "unknown" one could be an old fantasy reconstruction, based upon the other.

Or, is there some other known source that the other card was copied from?

In any case, it's an interesting find.
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Hi!
They do not look to be by the same hand either. There are subtle differences in colour shade and body form. They remind me of the so called Castle Ursino cards more than the Charles V1; although I allow the Valet of D'epee is like the Charles V1 card. If that is a copy of the card- then the other is from somewhere else-like a Marseilles Valet of Denier minus the denier? It just looks familiar- like a hanged man turned up and shield and spear added. It is the legs close together or something about it like that.

What ever they are interesting!

~Rosanne
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Very interesting.
What's the place of the original link?
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Hi Huck- I have just seen the 'News Flash' on Trionfi about these cards.
Thanks for the flattering mention- but I knew nothing about them until I saw this thread by OnePotato.

It would be great if they were not fake and the genuine thing.
I do not know what to make of them- Lucky new owners I would say.
I would love them to be tested somehow for physical dating- like insects in the pasteboard or paper. Or maybe only this happens in Fairyland on TV lol.

The do look a little like Castle Ursino cards though. Just a personal observation.

~Rosanne
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The two cards sold for a very large amount of money.

The big question, first, is: Are they authentic? And if so, authentic what?

Thank you for documenting them, Huck.

I hope their new owner will make scans and information available to the tarot history community and not just keep them tucked away.

Very exciting!

eta: The initial research on these two cards was done by OnePotato, not by me. I saw them on e-bay and sent OnePotato the link with a message--look at these, terrible condition, not so interesting. He is the person who saw what they might be! I was embarrassed not to recognize the Grigonneur pattern.
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Hi Rosanne.

I can't be sure from the low rez photos, but I'm not so sure they are by different hands. There are a lot of similarities in both line quality and drawing style.

-The treatment of the backgrounds and borders, in which the embossing of the gold leaf is rendered as dots.

-The treatment of the vegetation of the ground area, as well as the way that that particular area is defined as a rectangle apart from the gold leaf.

-The fine dotted line in the gold leaf area that surrounds the figures. (Most obvious at the shoulders.)

-The general construction of the clothing, drawn as a series of defined shapes.

To me, these two figures feel like brothers from the same deck.

I think the same person drew them both.
Keep in mind that the artist who did the drawings is representing two existing paintings, and is limited by that. (He is not drawing a figure, but rather a painting of a figure.) Some subtle differences may be exaggerated by the visual translation from painting to line work.

I suspect that if these are authentic, they are direct copies that were done while more of the Gringonneur deck was still intact, and that we are seeing a drawing of what the now lost Valet d' Batons looked like.

If they are fake, they appear to be a fairly sophisticated forgery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosanne
Hi!
They do not look to be by the same hand either. There are subtle differences in colour shade and body form. They remind me of the so called Castle Ursino cards more than the Charles V1; although I allow the Valet of D'epee is like the Charles V1 card. If that is a copy of the card- then the other is from somewhere else-like a Marseilles Valet of Denier minus the denier? It just looks familiar- like a hanged man turned up and shield and spear added. It is the legs close together or something about it like that.

What ever they are interesting!

~Rosanne
Top   #6
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Oops


Sorry, I mixed there something ... but I changed the passage at

http://trionfi.com/0/n/0902/
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The Valet d'Epee especially looks like it was drawn by Oswald Wirth - as per his original deck:

http://marygreer.wordpress.com/files...thmagician.jpg
and the later edition
http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/i...80ddb20788.jpg
Top   #8
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Hello Teheuti.

Are you suggesting that Oswald Wirth actually authored these?
Can you tell us what it is about this work that makes you think he drew them?

I see nothing in the penwork or drawing style to suggest that these are by the same hand as the Wirth deck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti
The Valet d'Epee especially looks like it was drawn by Oswald Wirth - as per his original deck:

http://marygreer.wordpress.com/files...thmagician.jpg
and the later edition
http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/i...80ddb20788.jpg
Top   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnePotato
Hello Teheuti.

Are you suggesting that Oswald Wirth actually authored these?
Can you tell us what it is about this work that makes you think he drew them?

I see nothing in the penwork or drawing style to suggest that these are by the same hand as the Wirth deck.
I thought there was a similarity, but I admit I am probably wrong. I just thought it should be considered.
Top   #10
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