Ethics on Where to Read Cards


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Seafra  Seafra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade
Oh absolutely, and it was meant to be slightly hyperbolic to take the edge off of the post itself. I assume that actual congratulation of an employee would sound like "Good call, that's just what I would have done and I am sure the other guests appreciated it."

But when a conversation as lively as this one could get tense I prefer a bit of hyperbole. Other versions might be:

"Oh thank goodness you got rid of her, I don't know how we'll ever get the patchouli smell out of the cushions."

"Well I am glad that gypsy woman is gone but she left her demon. Should that go in the lost and found or did she leave an address?"

"Whew that's a relief, let's go get the sage and get rid of them tarot vibes"

or even

"I'm so glad you did that. I love tarot but can you believe he brought out a Thoth deck... with all these people around. Some people just never think of others' safety. I mean th THOTH deck!"
I just prefer that you made it clear that these comments are **assumptions** on your part. This is not at all how I would approach the situation, nor has it ever been how I'd approach any situation. I'm offended that someone would think my approach would be at all like this. Professional attitude is key.
Top   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nisaba
This is the second time in a few days that I've seen Wicca specifically come up.

Tarot is not limited to Wicca, and in fact did not originate in Wicca. I am a Wiccan, but in the other mention of Wicca and Tarot, it was phrased as an assumption that someone living a spiriutual life would be Wiccan.

I know scads of very deeply spiritual people who are not Wiccans. And as a Wiccan, at the moment I am deeply benefitting by reading Sufi texts and the Torah and related Hebraic texts.

Tarot is not a Wiccan religious practice.

I can be a perfectly devout and complete Wiccan without ever touching a deck.

I can be a perfectly devout and complete any-other-religion and use Tarot all the time.

As a human being, I use Tarot about every day. As a Wiccan, I never use Tarot. As a Wiccan I never use my dowsing pendulum either - I use it as a person whose religion is a moot point. As a Wiccan, I use my four Ritual Objects. They are all that I need - in fact more than I need - to be a good Wiccan. To be a good Wiccan, all I really need is my mind.

Every time I leave my house I wear a rainbow hat. I feel naked and exposed without it. Is it an article of religious faith because it has colours in it that may or may not be used in religious practice and I feel all energetically messed-up without it? I think not. Does it identify me as a Wiccan, or as gay? To some people, maybe. Do I intend that? <shrugs>. Do I care? No. Do I mind if people don't read those meanings into it? Nope. Are they both relevant to me? Yes, but so what?

I use Tarot all the time.

I am a Wiccan all the time.

Tarot and Wicca have nothing at all in common with each other, except that they are involvements of mine. I also like reading Patrick White's novels - they are another involvement. When I'm not between cars, I enjoy driving really, really fast and in fact I've held a CAMS licence in the past. I am a Wiccan. Is fast driving an article of faith? No, but it is as deeply intrinsic to me as an individual as my faith. Is Tarot an article of faith? No, but it is as intrinsic to me as fast driving.
You might not, but many Wiccans do, as do many of those who practice a Hermetic spirituality (but not all).

And if you read my post, you will not see anywhere that Tarot and Wicca are exclusively joined. But enough Wiccans and Hermetics use tarot as a spiritual tool to justify saying that it is a Wiccan spiritual tool.

It doesn't make it exclusively that.

And of course Tarot didn't originate in Wicca, given that Wicca is barely 60 years old, whereas Tarot is nearly 600 years old. But many Wiccans have adopted it as a spiritual tool, and consecrate it on their altars and at rituals - a practice derived from the use of the Tarot as a spiritual tool by the Golden Dawn, which was one of Gardner's main influences when he founded Wicca.


At any rate, it would be an arguable case in court - especially in the United States.
Top   #172
Seafra  Seafra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudugazi
At any rate, it would be an arguable case in court - especially in the United States.
I think the problem the ACLU has with Tarot is its use as a fortune telling tool. Fortune telling goes against zoning laws in so many areas in the US and the ACLU has no authority regarding them. I do know they fought on behalf of a woman who did online readings in an area w/zoning laws banning fortune telling (she had a license for internet sales) and the courts ruled against the tarot reader so she could no longer 'sell' readings from her home, even though it was on the internet.

I'm simply a google goddess w/no law background but during down time at work this would be an interesting area to poke my nose into.

MODS: I know this is OT but hope you'll allow it.
Top   #173
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Shade  Shade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seafra
I just prefer that you made it clear that these comments are **assumptions** on your part. This is not at all how I would approach the situation, nor has it ever been how I'd approach any situation. I'm offended that someone would think my approach would be at all like this. Professional attitude is key.
Ah but I don't imagine your approach would be at all like that. We're all operating out of our own hypothetical sandbox/dollhouse and imagining how a scene might play out. Many scenarios so far suggested seem like a stretch but that's how this plays out.

In my imaginary scenario the restaurant/hotel employee probably says "I'm sorry but I am going to have to ask you to not read tarot cards here."

Polite? Yes. Professional? Yes. Bad customer service? In my opinion yes. Extremely useful? Yes. Because it lets us know which places we want to avoid so that we can be treated in a way we consider respectful. Now I have seen all sorts of people asked to leave someplace for all kinds of behavior from, being loud, making out, wearing a 6 ft boa constrictor, having their non-service dog with them, etc. I imagine in all of those cases some people felt that it was poor treatment of the people and some people were quite relieved to see them go.

And Seafara, I know that you feel very close to this topic and I know it is nigh impossible not to take it personally when people on the board say they would not be happy if they were asked to put their cards away. I think we are all just trying to imagine how we would react or feel in the situation. I don't think anyone wants to make any character attacks directed at you but it probably feels that way. Similarly I know I raised my eyebrows when it was suggested that people reading tarot in public might just be $#!& starters trying to make waves. It just runs contrary to all the times people working at a cafe have been delighted that I have my cards out and asked for a reading.
Top   #174
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gregory  gregory is offline
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I just ran this past someone with no interest in the actual specific issue as such - just "someone is doing something perfectly legal and in your view harmless, in a public place" (and let's don't forget a hotel actually isn't a public place, but still...)
"and it is upsetting someone else. What should happen?"

Instant response. "The nicer one would move."

I'd rather be the nicer one.
Top   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregory
I just ran this past someone with no interest in the actual specific issue as such - just "someone is doing something perfectly legal and in your view harmless, in a public place" (and let's don't forget a hotel actually isn't a public place, but still...
"and it is upsetting someone else. What should happen?"

Instant response. "The nicer one would move."

I'd rather be the nicer one.
I do see your point. And I'd rather be the nicer one too. I have my ideas and ideals of who I want to be in this world. While I'm not responsible for what someone else decides to be in this world, I am directly responsible for who I want to be. And yeah, I'd rather focus on nice and on being considerate to others.

To me, even if I feel I am in the right and there is nothing wrong with reading in public, the moment I know someone is bothered by it...if I continue, then I am no longer in the right.

Not judging anyone of course.

We all have to decide on a very individual basis, who we want to be in the world and what values are important to us. It's a personal decision we all get to make. But that is who I personally want to be, and if I disobey that, then it is wrong for me, because it goes against my life purpose.

Babs
Top   #176
Seafra  Seafra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade
Because it lets us know which places we want to avoid so that we can be treated in a way we consider respectful.
How difficult is it to ask if you can read your cards when you have entered a private place of business before you assume no one will have a problem with it? Isn't that the best approach so that no one is put in an awkward position?

As I said in an earlier post, if you know you want to read in the lobby why don't you call ahead and ask if that would be permitted? If it isn't wouldn't it just be less stressful for everyone if you located a hotel that would permit it?

If a private business is set up so that there is a sense of privacy for their clientele built in to their space then the owner has designed that space specifically for the provision of privacy. If the space is not set up that way no one should expect to be granted a right of privacy for personal activities. To me this is so basic I can't believe there's been a debate.
Top   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seafra
How difficult is it to ask if you can read your cards when you have entered a private place of business before you assume no one will have a problem with it? Isn't that the best approach so that no one is put in an awkward position?

As I said in an earlier post, if you know you want to read in the lobby why don't you call ahead and ask if that would be permitted?
<clap clap clap clap clap clap>
Top   #178
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er...in response to some earlier posts....Ive been in situations where I cannot read in public, so I would have to use playing cards, and noticible games like solitaire to read....I guess convinence and respecting other people's wishes whille upholding your own would be good advice....love to all, and lets remember that we are all on the same side...people who love the cards so much, that we are willing to do many a nutty thing to have and use them.
Top   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade
Bad customer service? In my opinion yes.
While I agree with a lot of what you say, Shade, customer service is tricky. I worked in it for a while, and there's a lot more depth to it than one customer's perspective. It's just not that cut and dried. We live in an era of outspokenness, and if a customer knows they have a channel of communication, they use it. That's a good thing, except that for one problem the business is likely to get about a thousand different requests from customers as to how to resolve it. It's ultimately up to the business or management, and in most cases I like to think -- especially in the hospitality industry -- they do their best to please most people within reason. But if my brief foray into retail was any indication, one can also bankrupt their business trying to please everyone.

I agree, it would be great if we could expect to walk into any business, and at least as a paying customer ourselves, pull out Tarot cards any time we like. In a perfect world, IMO, that would be the case.

I think you make a good point, though, that complaining to the ownership really works in the favor of any manager who is following company policy -- if the owners are fair. I've seen instances, though, where the employee became the scapegoat -- I can imagine an owner saying that wasn't how they told someone to handle a situation, when in fact it was. ETA: Whether it's miscommunication, or the problem is the owner is sitting in an office somewhere making policy, and doesn't comprehend that it's different to be face-to-face with customers, these things do happen, and rarely does the employer take the blame.

But in general yes, I think we should be able to expect to read Tarot anywhere as long as we're not squatting (going into places we aren't paying to be). But what I want isn't the way of the world, at the moment, and I don't expect it to be.

Then again, I'm the mousy Tarot reader who prefers to stay home.
Top   #180
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