Etteilla Timeline and Etteilla card Variants - background


> Aeclectic Tarot Forum > Tarot Special Interest > Tarot History & Development



 
Cerulean's Avatar
Cerulean  Cerulean is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 26 Apr 2002
Location: Calif., USA
Posts: 9,341
Cerulean 
Thanks for the correction-I see it is Princesse Tarot


The fourth variant, the French Princesse Tarot or Jeu de la Princesse (my book is dated 1845), page 150 of A Wicked Pack of cards.

This book also has the FG Irwin bookplate and a motto Dum Msmoir Ipse Mei.


I have been reading the text and it references many fables, but Napoleon and the mages of the pharohs and patience and piquet......and, oh my! Seductive even if you just read the French straight through, chuckling all the way. Maybe just a juicy curioiusity so I can play period cartomancy games with the Lo Scarabeo Jeu de Princesse.

I too have been hopping through too my texts. The fourth" Etteilla" became Etteilla IV, which seems to have existed as a title only. in my brain. Odd French variation, probably just,me having too much fun.

Thanks Mike for your commentary, will keep me busy this weekend after work and classes.
Top   #181
Christine  Christine is offline
Resident
 
Join Date: 30 Aug 2003
Location: Oregon USA
Posts: 80
Christine 
related thread


MikeH, more thanks for your list of articles, I'm heading out on a trip (supposed to be already gone) but I'll enjoy looking it all over when I get back.

I followed this link http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=68882

that led me to another link, http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=16389

...which made me think of you:

The conversation going on there, and the intense data-dump from John Meador especially, might afford you with a whole new set of links and lines of research, lines of transmission and seminal documents.

I have had some private conversation with Mary about Franckenberg and his publication called Raphael. Perhaps we could prevail upon Mary to post the link to a great scan of the whole publication, much better than what I have in print. I think it's important to expose ourselves to the incredibly erudite, vastly inspired, multi-lingual and interdisciplinary level of these people's thinking, and the Raphael manuscript is a great example of the genre. I sent it to Mary because I think that Oswald Wirth was looking at this MS while he was writing his book, but I recommend it here for the sense of perspective it gives us about how our predecessors were communicating and thinking.

It is also incredibly relevant to a discussion of Etteilla because this is exactly the type of material Etteilla should have been exposed to if he was part of this Rosicrucian/Masonic milieu.

You'll find John to be incredibly generous with sources.
Top   #182
kwaw's Avatar
kwaw  kwaw is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 29 Dec 2003
Location: Nr. Ephesus, Turkey
Posts: 5,400
kwaw 
I Am Raphael:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Christine View Post

I have had some private conversation with Mary about Franckenberg and his publication called Raphael. Perhaps we could prevail upon Mary to post the link to a great scan of the whole publication, much better than what I have in print.
Don't know whether it is the same link Mary has, but there is a digital edition here:

אני רפאל

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christine View Post
MikeH...

I followed this link http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=68882

that led me to another link, http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=16389

...which made me think of you:

Michael's ruminations on Franckenberg's key might also be of interest:

http://cartedatrionfi.tripod.com/RotaTaro.html
Top   #183
Christine  Christine is offline
Resident
 
Join Date: 30 Aug 2003
Location: Oregon USA
Posts: 80
Christine 
On the Clavis


Michael's rumination so the Key are too cynical and dismissive to be of much help. Sorry but I can't get behind that attitude -- it's been the toad in the road for too long already.

It'd say it would be better for somebody with less preconceived opinions to look at the whole thing freshly, without the echo from DDD and the historical "attitude problem".

... but that's just me...
Top   #184
Cerulean's Avatar
Cerulean  Cerulean is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 26 Apr 2002
Location: Calif., USA
Posts: 9,341
Cerulean 
Le Fou, 1845 par Johannes Trismegieste


...if you are looking for an Etteilla pattern with text that mentions tarot links in a modern view of linking tarot with 'Cabalistes et les Pythagoriciens,' it's here below.

The book is the one I mentioned before and here is the text:

L'Art De Tier Les Cartes
Revelations Completes Sur Les Destinees
Au Moyen Des Cartes et Des Tarots
Survi d'un Jeu Des Patiences
Par Johannes Trimegeste (orne de 150 figures)

Chaptitre XI
P. 68

Le Fou

Cette carte ne porte pas de numero, ainsi que les vingt et une que nous venons d'interpreter. Les cartiers l'ont surnommee le Fou parce qu'effectivement elle represente la Folie avec sa marotte son hoquetou garni de coquillages of de sonnettes. Ce fou marche tres-vite, emportant derriere luis sa besace, et s'imaginant echapper a un tigre qui lui mord la croupe. Cette besace est l'embleme de ses fautes, qu'il voudrait pas apercevoir, et ce tigre celuis des ses remords, qui le suivent et retardent sa marche vers le crime. -- Nous appellerous cette carte zero, parce qu'elle ne compte pas quand elle est seule, et n'a de valeur que celle qu'elle donne aux autres cartes, precisement comme le zero. -- Cette figure montre que rien n'existe sans folies, et que les vingt-deux emblemes des Tarots representent, dans leur sens le plus naturel, le resultat des actions des hommes.

Quant au nombre vingt-deux, rappelons ici que l'alphabet hebreu compte vingt-deux lettres.

N'oublious pas aussi le nombre septenaire si singulier, si remarquable dans ces vingt-deux cartes; nombre mystique, fameux chez les Cabilistes et les Pythagoriciens, et qui, dans tous les pays, donne lieu a des observations curioeuses et importantes. Et ici, ne peut-il resumer ainsi le jeu des Tarots....

(will correct and add better translation later-)-

But there's something associated with an Etteilla pattern, although it is a 'later' offshoot of Etteilla designs and I promised Teheuti if I came up with anything in material associated with Etteilla that might have Kabbalah/Caballah/Hebrew alphabet associations, I would post when I found it...I believe MikeH and Teheuti were provided copies of this specific text, so they could look it up and perhaps it will be helpful for discussion.

Anyway, it's blunt enough that the owner or reader of the book would find 'cabalistic' associations noted in the tarot. If the bookplate of FG Irwin is the same
FG Irwin of the Golden Dawn, here's a bit of a link in terms of tarot tales being 'passed' from an Etteilla-style deck to an esoteric member of a British order*.

(a search on the net came up with a description that the bookplate could be that of the same FG Irwin, especially with the motto Dum Memori Ipse Mei--still looking to confirm this...a pencilled date of 1867 in this 1845 book might be an additional clue*)

Hope this is of interest. In post 181 I noted that this is listed on page 150 of A Wicked Pack of Cards and that is why it is one of the "Etteilla-related" texts that I've been combing through for various reasons. It seems that the development or discussion of such things as early/late as 1845 are referenced here. If I find anything earlier while looking through "Etteilla-derived" or "Etteilla-linked" patterns, of course I'll post.
Top   #185
Cerulean's Avatar
Cerulean  Cerulean is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 26 Apr 2002
Location: Calif., USA
Posts: 9,341
Cerulean 
Chaptre X: Des Tarots...


So here, the numbers need to add up to seven.

P. 32-35 has the 'numbering scheme of sevens'

Le jeu des Taros a ete invente par un home de genie avant ou apres le jeu des Echecs, avec lequel il a beaucoup du similtude.

La forme, l'arrangement et les figures de ses cartes sont si manifestement allegoriques, et ses allegories si conformes a la doctrine philosophique; civile et religeuses des Egyptiens, qu'on ne peut douter qu'il n'en soient les inventeurs--rivaux, a cet egard, des Indiens, qui imaginerent le jeu des Echecs, pour ensigner a leurs armees l'art de la guerre.

Et d'alilleurs, le nombre meme des Tarots ne prouverait-il pas assez leur origine?

En effet, ce jeu est fonde tout entier sur le nombre sacre de sept, car chaque couleur est de deux fois sept carates, et les figures sont au nombre de trois fois sept. L'ensemble des cartes et figures donne soixande et dix-sept, la figure sans numero, etant consideree comme le zero. Et personne aignore quel role important ce nombre sept jonait chez les Egyptiens: etait une formule a laquelle ils rameneient les elements de toutes sciences.

Lorsque les Egyptiens curent oublie la premiere interpretations de leurs Tarots, et qu'ils sen forent servis comme de simples lettres pour leur ecriture sacree, qui en avait vingt-deux, ils attacherent tout naturellement une vertu occulte a ces caracteres respectables par leur antiquite. Aussi la science des Nombres et la valeur des Lettres ont-elles ete tres-celebres chez les Africains et les Asiatiques, du temps de Moitemoin la verge des Moise. En Egypt, les pretres seules en avaient l'intelligence, et ils ne les employaient que pour les choses religiuses.

Bientot on inventa de nouveaux carateres, et l'on voit dans l'Ecriture sainte que les Mages, ainsi que les personnes initiees a leurs secrets,"practiquient, une divinatoire par la coupe; la vinune divnation par la coupe; la coupe de Josephe l'atteste. Ils operaient des merveilles par le baton...


...
Top   #186
kwaw's Avatar
kwaw  kwaw is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 29 Dec 2003
Location: Nr. Ephesus, Turkey
Posts: 5,400
kwaw 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerulean View Post
...if you are looking for an Etteilla pattern with text that mentions tarot links in a modern view of linking tarot with 'Cabalistes et les Pythagoriciens,' it's here below.

The book is the one I mentioned before and here is the text:

L'Art De Tier Les Cartes
Revelations Completes Sur Les Destinees
Au Moyen Des Cartes et Des Tarots
Survi d'un Jeu Des Patiences
Par Johannes Trimegeste (orne de 150 figures)

Chaptitre XI
P. 68

Le Fou

Cette carte ne porte pas de numero, ainsi que les vingt et une que nous venons d'interpreter. Les cartiers l'ont surnommee le Fou parce qu'effectivement elle represente la Folie avec sa marotte son hoquetou garni de coquillages of de sonnettes. Ce fou marche tres-vite, emportant derriere luis sa besace, et s'imaginant echapper a un tigre qui lui mord la croupe. Cette besace est l'embleme de ses fautes, qu'il voudrait pas apercevoir, et ce tigre celuis des ses remords, qui le suivent et retardent sa marche vers le crime. -- Nous appellerous cette carte zero, parce qu'elle ne compte pas quand elle est seule, et n'a de valeur que celle qu'elle donne aux autres cartes, precisement comme le zero. -- Cette figure montre que rien n'existe sans folies, et que les vingt-deux emblemes des Tarots representent, dans leur sens le plus naturel, le resultat des actions des hommes.

Quant au nombre vingt-deux, rappelons ici que l'alphabet hebreu compte vingt-deux lettres.
Thanks Cerulean, Trimegeste copies here directly from C. de Gebelin and the C. de Mellet.

Compare the above with:

C. de Mellet

Il est suivi d'une carte unique représentant La Folie qui porte son sac ou ses défauts par derriere, tandis qu'un tigre ou les remords, lui dévorant les jarrets, retarde sa marche vers le crime. . .

C. de Gebelin

On ne peut méconnoître le Fou dans cette Carte, à sa marotte, & à son hoqueton garni de coquillages & de sonnettes: il marche très-vîte comme un fou qu'il est, portant derriere lui son petit paquet, & s'imaginant échapper par-là à un Tigre qui lui mord la croupe: quant au fac, il est l'emblême de ses fautes qu'il ne voudroit pas voir; & ce Tigre, celui de ses remords qui le suivent galopant, & qui sautent en croupe derriere lui.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerulean View Post
So here, the numbers need to add up to seven.

P. 32-35 has the 'numbering scheme of sevens'

Le jeu des Taros a ete invente par un home de genie avant ou apres le jeu des Echecs, avec lequel il a beaucoup du similtude.

La forme, l'arrangement et les figures de ses cartes sont si manifestement allegoriques, et ses allegories si conformes a la doctrine philosophique; civile et religeuses des Egyptiens, qu'on ne peut douter qu'il n'en soient les inventeurs--rivaux, a cet egard, des Indiens, qui imaginerent le jeu des Echecs, pour ensigner a leurs armees l'art de la guerre.
Gebelin

Mais la forme, la disposition, l'arrangement de ce Jeu & les figures qu'il offre sont si manifestement allégoriques, & ces allégories sont si conformes à la doctrine civile, philosophique & religieuse des anciens Egyptiens, qu'on ne peut s'empêcher de le reconnoître pour l'ouvrage de ce Peuple de Sages: qu'eux seuls purent en être les Inventeurs, rivaux à cet égard des Indiens qui inventoient le Jeu des Echecs.

Quote:

En effet, ce jeu est fonde tout entier sur le nombre sacre de sept, car chaque couleur est de deux fois sept carates, et les figures sont au nombre de trois fois sept. L'ensemble des cartes et figures donne soixande et dix-sept, la figure sans numero, etant consideree comme le zero. Et personne aignore quel role important ce nombre sept jonait chez les Egyptiens: etait une formule a laquelle ils rameneient les elements de toutes sciences.
Gebelin

Ce Jeu est absolument fondé sur le nombre sacré de sept. Chaque couleur est de deux fois sept cartes. Les Atous sont au nombre de trois fois sept; le nombre des cartes de soixante-dix-sept; le Fou étant comme 0. Or, personne n'ignore le rôle que ce nombre jouoit chez les Egyptiens, & qu'il étoit devenu chez eux une formule à laquelle ils ramenoient les élémens de toutes les Sciences.

There is more, but I think this is sufficient. . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerulean View Post
...I believe MikeH and Teheuti were provided copies of this specific text, so they could look it up and perhaps it will be helpful for discussion.
My French is not great but I can work my way through it slowly (it is painfully working through foreign texts that allows me to recognize inter-textual sources like above perhaps, English I don't tend to read so closely and I maybe halfway or more through reading am English language book before I realize I've read it before! ), if digital copies of Etteilla related material is available I too would be interested in such!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christine View Post
Michael's rumination so the Key are too cynical and dismissive to be of much help. Sorry but I can't get behind that attitude -- it's been the toad in the road for too long already.

It'd say it would be better for somebody with less preconceived opinions to look at the whole thing freshly, without the echo from DDD and the historical "attitude problem".

... but that's just me...
A toad? I tend to think that of the plague of us toads upon these, our isolated roads, Michael's and the DDD 'attitude' is more like . . . one of too few cars -

squish squashing erroneous claims to historical veracity and methodological standards -

. . . but that is just me . . .

Kwaw
Top   #187
Teheuti's Avatar
Teheuti  Teheuti is offline
Resident
 
Join Date: 24 Aug 2003
Location: Northern California
Posts: 5,539
Teheuti 

Kwaw - thanks for recognizing these lines. I, too, have to go though these texts with a translation program and a dictionary - but my memory is no longer good enough to remember what I've read. It takes a whole community to put the pieces together.

BTW, I thought Mike H's analysis of the Postel/Frankenberg Key was brilliant. To me it makes much more sense than the conviction that ROTA is an anagram even though the other words clearly aren't. The point is that 'Postel's Key' is that of Christian Kabbalah and the relationship between God and Human - which is what they were writing about.

It is totally understandable that later writers like Lévi, et al, who were making the Tarot/Kabbalah plus Divine/Human links in order to practice Theurgic Magic would use such material as justification for their own perspective.

It doesn't make it historically correct, but that doesn't mean that such myths should be thrown out in their entirety. Such lore becomes part of the mythic/astral world in which magicians move in order to do their work. It offers psychic ley lines along which one can tap power in the etheric realm and use connections to effect the physical world. Confusion occurs when each realm is not given its due and when we insist that one must equal the other - that belief and science have to concur, when they don't. The fact that belief and science often don't concur (but that that's okay) is a central realization that Chaos Magicians came to while most people are still stuck with the old paradigm that only when belief and science match are we dealing with "Truth."

The Historical Research section of Aeclectic reserves the right, as I understand it, to operate in the realm of science and its requisite evidence. However, that doesn't give Science the right to deride the truth of other realms - only to make it clear when the demands of scientific evidence and logic are being met and when they aren't.
Top   #188
Cerulean's Avatar
Cerulean  Cerulean is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 26 Apr 2002
Location: Calif., USA
Posts: 9,341
Cerulean 
Return later with citations


I need a placeholder for questions I have to masonic brethren of Etteilla's time that also have tarot links.

They can be removed or thread divided and linked

Simon Blocquel in Lille published Etteilla decks and so did his son in,law Delarue. Blocquel is said to be a mason.

Were Delarue and subsequent publishers of French Etteilla decks , including Grimaud,masons?


I wrote playing card timeline side of di Gumppenburg , couldnt find occult decks. The Neoclassical still fascinates me, but no esoteric secrets, no hiddeness, just lovely playing cards. Would other Frenchpublishers , not Grimaud, do both esoteric and popular culture decks with Etteilla influences?

Former Empress Josephine ...stories of tarot, Martinique, prison, superstition...anywhere in this mix?
Top   #189
Teheuti's Avatar
Teheuti  Teheuti is offline
Resident
 
Join Date: 24 Aug 2003
Location: Northern California
Posts: 5,539
Teheuti 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerulean View Post
Were Delarue and subsequent publishers of French Etteilla decks , including Grimaud,masons?
Excellent question, although I don't know how to get the information. But, even if they were Masons, it doesn't mean that they had any interest or involvement in the occult or mystical. Oswald Wirth's major complaint and life's work involved making Masons more aware of the occult symbolism that they regularly overlooked. Both Kenneth Mackenzie and Waite had a similar mission in England and their Masonic encyclopedias are genrally considered fringe works because of this. I regularly hear from Masons who I know of their disappointment that most of their colleagues are uninterested in the symbolic and deeper meanings but consider Masonry simply a fraternal and charitable organization.

Quote:
Former Empress Josephine ...stories of tarot, Martinique, prison, superstition... anywhere in this mix?
You'll find a lot of first-hand accounts of cartomancy during this period (with a focus on Lenormand) here:
http://marygreer.wordpress.com/2008/...r-of-all-time/
Top   #190
Elsewhere on Aeclectic Tarot
· Tarot Cards & Reviews
· Free Tarot Readings
· Tarot eBooks
· Tarot Card Meanings

Aeclectic Tarot Categories
· Angel Decks
· Dark & Gothic Decks
· Goddess Decks
· Fairy Decks
· Doreen Virtue Decks
· Beginner Decks
· Cat Decks
· Pagan & Wiccan Decks
· Ancient Egyptian Decks
· Celtic Decks
· Lenormand Decks
· Rider-Waite Decks
· Marseilles Decks
· Thoth Decks
· Oracle Decks
· List All Decks
· Popular Tarot Decks
· Available Decks
· What's New

Copyright © 1996 - 2021 Aeclectic Tarot. All rights reserved. Privacy Policy. Contact us.