The White Goddess by Robert Graves

ihcoyc said:

When I invest time in fiction, I don't want to have the act of reading deconstructed: I want a story!

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Well, I've got a story about a Pook who liked pepsin chiclets.

I never read Finnegan's Wake. For bibliomancy I prefer Pears Cyclopaedia 1975-1976 (84th edition).

For instance:

"The old expressions 'alimony' and 'maintenance pending suit' are abolished. All financial assistance to a spouse or children during or after the termination of matrimonial proceedings is known as 'ancillary relief' (i.e. subsidiary), and it may consist of 'periodical payments' (so much per week or month) or 'lump sums' (one or more payments of a substantial amount).

[D33 - English Law, Pears Cyclopaedia ©1975 Pelham Books Ltd. and a partridge in a pear tree]

I was a lump sum in my last life but received no ancillary compensation for taking my lumps. I have been known to be periodically off-topic but I refused a maintenance pending suit on the grounds that it may abolish my right to any subsidiary lumps that are due to me.

And a partridge in a pear tree.

(This makes as much sense as James Joyce did on a good day.)

Reviving this thread in light of Venicebard's discussion

in a thread of the Tarot and the Holy Grail--he has synthesized quite a bit of information from Robert Grave's The White Goddess and also tarot.

Can you tell me your views of the White Goddess? I've read commentary and only 'just enough' of the book to enjoy this as a poetic memoir related to the genre 'creative nonfiction'. In this category I might also put "The Pillow Book of Sei Shonagon" in that poetry, metaphor, reality and myth all mingle...

This is my version of the book, a revised paperback:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0374504938/ref=nosim/aeclectic/

Hoping that others have a chance to add to the discussion...I'm especially interested in how people perceive Robert Graves ideas of the Grail and Arthurian mythology.

Thanks.

Cerulean

White goddess

darwinia said:

... he certainly manages to make history and myth come alive, and his writing and language are lovely to read. So, does anyone here own this and have any comments? The White Goddess: A Historical Grammar of Poetic Myth by Robert Graves /

I haven't read it, and I'm glad to know how well written-poetic it is. Some years ago I took a class on "History of the Goddess" at a local university, for which it was on the recommended reading list. Therefore it would seem to be academically respectable. I had just finished a five-year program and was fed up with the obtuse obfuscation of academic 'literature.' I didn't want to read one more book than I absolutely had to.

I guess it's time I checked it out of the library.

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I have been re reading The White Goddess because of VeniceBards posts also. I was given the book years ago and read it because of Graves Poetry. I loved it at the time and treated it as more a non-fiction read. There does at this point in time, to me, seem to be a lot of Historical inaccuracies. I am also aware that Graves considered himself a Poet first, a story teller second and sometimes a weak Historian. In this publication that I have, he said the tree alphabet could be matched with the Tarot, but he does not give anymore information on that correlation. I do not agree with his 'wanderings of the Celts' and some of his Indo-European thoughts. I absolutely loved 'I Claudius' and I love his poetry- but to get a more accurate Celtic view I am reading other books to find out about Grail Legend and thought. I do agree with the view like thousands of others in matriacal Cosmologys were replaced by Patriacal ones and I reckon that happened With St Paul (Saul) and his hyjacking of James the Just's new Christian Church... ah but that is another whole story- Enjoy your read Of Robert Graves, take what is best and leave the rest ~Rosanne

I would like to add That The White Goddess was written nearly sixty years ago, and there is a lot more knowledge about the subject that is available. I say this in defense of his beautiful way of writing- and the fact that I did not, way back when I first read it, understand some of his theories. I have heard that he regretted some of the things in it that he wrote. ~Rosanne

I read the book for the first time last year, and just absolutely loved it. Graves is very explicit, at a couple of different points, on the difference between poetic vs. scholarly methods of research, identifying his own work on no uncertain terms as poetic. I see the book as more of an ars poetica than anything else--and, taken this way, it's so gorgeous. Cerulean, I don't recall much about the grail, apart from reference to a cauldron/sacred well of British tradition which I find my own notes on at the back of the book under ACE OF CUPS. I don't seem to recall much at all on the Christian grail though . . .

His tree-calendar system, regardless of its historical accuracy or lack thereof, fascinates me. It's particularly interesting to read these chapters with tarot in mind . . . a bit like trying to piece a puzzle together (as others have pointed out), although in the end one may realize that this particular puzzle was never meant to be pieced together

But you know, in a way I don't really care what was meant or not meant, just as Graves himself may not have cared whether his own intuited connections were 'valid' or pure fancy . . . ?? I think in this case the point may be the journey.

I have to say, I'm a fan of Robert Graves but I only made it through a couple of chapters of the White Goddess... what the hell, I'll add my few pence-worth anyway.

Our picture of ancient history has changed radically since the WG was conceived and written in the 40's and 50's. It's a product of its time, and I think it does have to be approached from that standpoint.

But this is not a book about history. It's about storytelling and redefining our perception of ancient myths in the light of the reality that Graves lived. Historically, it says more about mid-20th century Europe than the ancient world. Most of all it's about who Robert Graves was; it reveals the pattern of his creative thinking rather than any underlying objective "truth" about the past.

It's also important to bear in mind that Graves was a prolific historical novelist (I Claudius is just the tip of the iceberg!). Although he defined himself primarily as a poet, historical novels were his bread and butter. I would see the WG as an extension of his mythic-historical fiction. Fact it ain't!

I think that it is important to put the White Goddess and the Golden Bough in the context of the times in which they were written. They make for an interesting read to someone in the 21st century, but in their time they were important reflections of current knowledge, acceptable literary practices and so on - in other words, their zeitgeist. Lord of the Rings, for example, reflects the period of the World Wars and social class characteristics that today seem so out-dated and demeaning, and Jung, with his use of the word 'primitives', which would now be considered pejorative, for example, is showing its age. All history is contextual anyway.

However, that doesn't mean that, if read critically, with an awareness of the fact that just as these writers reflect their times, we read from the context of ours.... and thus, we can enjoy, learn, question the impact of both their and our own mindsets on everything we read, seek out the pearls of wisdom that are hidden within the context ... find the universals and dismiss what is no longer relevant.

Having said all that ... I absolutely believe everything I read as I read it. I read then, a book with an opposing viewpoint and get equally sucked into the 'story'. But ... I do take off my rose-coloured glasses once in a while ... can't see a damn thing, and find that I have to use mind and intuition to find the relative truth which works for me now.

As a teen, I loved Lawrence ... as a 53 year old I think it makes great kindling. I carried Joyce and Dylan Thomas under my arm, exposing titles of course, as a 15 year old doing the literary snob thing. I started to read Joyce but that lasted about 5 minutes, but I still love Thomas. Time, place, environment, philosophical, technological, social. Cultural, historical context, age, experience ... all figure in the picture.

Did I get much out of the White Goddess? No, but that was because I kept seeing a twitching Derek Jaccoby, whom I can't stand, in my mind. See ... bias, too, affects (and infects) our views.

Think Second World War: Who said this? "For over five years this man has been chasing around Europe like a madman in search of something he could set on fire.

Unfortunately, he again and again finds hirelings who open the gates of their country to this international incendiary".

As an Australian ... I assumed it was Sir Winston Churchill. But No ... it was Hitler referring to Churchill..

Quote from Man and his Symbols, Jung et al, 1973 paperback, Dell Press p. 181

So, if you are interested, can pick up a copy for a reasonable price and keep my waffle, and other’s far more erudite comments in mind … go for it!

mythos, who is a relativist, an instrumentalist, and waffles a lot!

baba-prague said:

Well, I love Joyce - but then I'm Irish .

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What I really need is a laminated edition of Finnegans Wake to read aloud in the shower.

punchinella said:

His tree-calendar system, regardless of its historical accuracy or lack thereof, fascinates me. It's particularly interesting to read these chapters with tarot in mind . . .

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Graves himself suggested a connection with the Tarot, however he edited out the two paragraphs mentioning this in the published edition [they have been included in the introduction of a recent edition].

Kwaw