Georgius Gemistus Plethon

Huck

Well, ...

...
if one wishes to know, what Filelfo had really in this text, one would need the text, naturally.

kwaw

MikeH said:
Also, here is p. 111 of Kroll vol. 1. Johnston says that the Oracle about the boy and the horse is on p. 111 lines 3-11. We do indeed see quite a few lines of verse there, clearly set off from the rest of the page and preceded by the "theoparadotos pustagogia" that tells us we are dealing with an Oracle. (It is also at http://www.hellenisticastrology.com...s-Rem-pvblicam-commentarii-ed-Kroll-vol-1.pdf, p. 111).

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-eJZTBdG4i...ADlc/0ODu20Jo2QA/s1600/Kroll110and111vol1.jpg

Yes it is: I give a link to the page, an english translation and attach an image of the greek text of the oracle (last three lines begining with the boy) in post #75

MikeH said:
Such a passage surely would have caught Filelfo's eye. Considering this page, with what I assume is its description of the naked boy and the horse, together with Plutarch's references to the sun as a newborn child at dawn and as the place from which daemons come and go (quoted them earlier), it seems to me that Filelfo wouldn't have needed Plethon's edition of the Oracles as inspiration for the children on the PMB Sun and World cards.

I agree, he wouldn't need Plethon for those images, he had access to them through Proclus and Plutarch : but while I can see clearly how 19th century occultists interpreted the Vieville card in light of the nude boy riding a horse passage (as off the top of my head I think Levi did, I referenced it if memory serves me right on a previous thread on the subject), it is not so clear (to me, as yet) for the 15th century painted cards...

MikeH said:
You will notice that even "Orpheus" is not indicated by name, but by way of "theologos" or "theologia"... So when Taylor puts "Orpheus" in parentheses, that would probably be his own comment, as opposed to what is in the original. But I have not checked the Greek edition of Proclus' Timaeus Commentary to see whether the word "Orpheus" appears there or not.

Orpheus is referenced simply by the epiteth 'the theologian' in many of the texts ... which I imagine may be a source of confusion, seeing that he referenced others by the same title, for instance Homer and Pisander (generally, but not always, he applies the term to the hexameter poets, but also includes sometimes 'mystical writings'). Porphry uses it twice in the singular (theologist) of Orpheus and Homer (in The cave of the Nymphs). Philo uses it of Moses. On the use and evolution of the term see the section on 'Homer as Theologos' here:

http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=aV80E_Vb2CgC&pg=PA22#v=onepage&q&f=false

There is also a section on Proclus that may also be of interest:

quote
"Aside from the philosophical literature that occupied him during most of his productive life, Proclus wrote essays or commentary on Hesiod's Work and Days and on several works in the mystical hexameter traditions: the Hymns of Orpheus and the Chaldean Oracles. When one finds Homer (and for that matter Hesiod) in this company, it is tempting to believe that Proclus made no sharp distinctions among the hexameter poets, and there is every reason to believe that he felt that Orpheus, Homer, Hesiod, and the Oracles all tapped a single tradition of wisdom that was also represented in different form in Pythagoras and Plato."
end quote

In his life of Plotinus, his disciptle Marinus writes [my insert in square brackets]:

"As to his writings, I will limit myself to the statement that he always preferred his Commentary on the Timaeus, although he had a great fondness for his Commentary on the Theatetus. He would often say, "If I had the power, of all ancient books I would leave in circulation only the [Chaldean] Oracles [Λογια] and the Timaeus; all the others, I would make them disappear from the eyes of our contemporaries, for they can only harm those who undertake their reading without care and attention!"

There is no mention of 'Chaldean' there but earlier he writes (according to Guthrie's English translation):

"26. He already possessed and practiced these virtues when he was still studying with the philosopher Syrianus, and while reading the treatises of the ancient philosophers; from his master's lips he had gathered the primary elements, and so to speak the germs of the Orphic and Chaldean theology. But Proclus never had the time to explain the Orphic poems.

"Syrianus had indeed planned to explain to him and to Syrian Domninus, either one of these works, the Orphic writings or the [Chaldean] Oracles, and had left the choice to them. But they did not agree in choosing the same work, Domninus choosing the Orphic, Proclus the Chaldean. This disagreement hindered Syrianus from doing anything, and then he soon died.

"Therefore Proclus had received from him only the first principles; but he studied the master's notes on the Orphics, and also the very numerous works of Porphyry and Iamblichus on the Oracles and other kindred Chaldean writings. Thus imbued with the divine Oracles, he achieved the highest of the virtues which the divine Iamblichus has so magnificently called the 'theurgic.' So Proclus combined the interpretations of his predecessors into a compendium that cost him much labor, and which he subjected to the most searching criticism, and he inserted therein the most characteristically Chaldean hypotheses, as well as the best drawn from the preceding commentaries written on the Oracles communicated by the divinities.

"It was in regard to this work, which took him more than five years, that, in a dream, he had a divine vision. It seemed to him that the great Plutarch predicted to him that he would live a number of years equal to the four-page folios he had composed on the Oracles. Having counted them, he found that there were seventy of them. The eventual close of his life proves that this dream was divine; for although, as we have said above, he lived five years beyond seventy, in these he was very much weakened. The too severe, nay, excessive austerity of his rule of life, his frequent ablutions, and other similar ascetic habits, had exhausted this constitution that nature had made so vigorous; so after his seventieth year he began to decline so that he could no longer attend to all his duties. In this condition he limited himself to praying, to composing hymns, to conversing with his friends,----all of which, however, still weakened him. Yet, remembering the dream that he had, he would be surprised about it, and would jokingly say that he had lived no more than seventy years."

I am not sure about Timaeus at the moment, but Proclus does mention Orpheus by name and not just by an epiteth in his 'Theology of Plato", the Greek text is quoted in the note* at the bottom of the page here:

"We are informed by Proclus*, that all the Grecian theology is the progeny of the mystic discipline of Orpheus and that Pythagoras was the first who learned the orgies of the gods from Aglaophemus the disciple of Orpheus. This sacred theology was fully displayed by Orpheus, with all the graces of poetical diction, accompanied with the fury of the muses and divine illumination, in a great work entitled,The Sacred Discourse which was divided into twenty-sour rhapsodies, and which has unhappily perished in the ruins of time.

"In this inestimable work, if we may be allowed to conjecture from a treatise of the same name composed by Pythagoras, and often mentioned by Syrianus, all the orders of the gods were celebrated from the highest principle of things, to the last processions of the mundane divinities. But Pythagoras was no doubt deeply indebted for a part of this knowledge to the doctrine of Zoroaster, whose dogmata, according to Apuleius*, he embraced, and whose profound mysteries involved in oracular darkness, we may presume he communicated to his initiated disciples. The whole of this recondite theology was afterwards received by Plato from the writings of Archytas, Philolaus, and other Pythagoreans, but was so concealed by poetical embellishments, and mystical traditions, that, like the numbers of Pythagoras, it was alone adapted to the comprehension of a penetrating and sagacious few."

*Platonic Theology, I, 5, 26.

*According to Apuleius Plato's doctrines differed little from those of Pythagorus, who was a student of the Persian Magi and especially of Zoroaster; see Apologia (25.9 & 26.5) & Florida (15:14-15) & Of Plato and his Doctrine (I.3). Apuleius cites 'Greek Authorities' (into whose mysteries he was initiated) as his sources.

Huck

Huck said:
Well, ... ...
if one wishes to know, what Filelfo had really in this text, one would need the text, naturally.

http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/giovanni-mario-filelfo_(Dizionario-Biografico)/

This is from the wild life of the (oldest ?) son of Filelfo (Filelfo himself had lots of children from 3 marriages, and I think, also from others), Gian Mario Filelfo (1426-1480).

He is mentioned in Filelfo's life for 1429/1467 with ...

Aprì il corso di lezioni, con molta probabilità, con un'enfatica prolusione De laudibus eloquentiae, mentre il 24 ott. 1429 tenne una praelectio, poi rimaneggiata nel 1467 dal figlio Giovanni Mario, De laudibus historiae, poeticae, philosophiae, forse introduttiva ad un corso su Cicerone.

http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/francesco-filelfo_(Dizionario-Biografico)/

The description is long and impressive inclusive some scandals, but it says nothing to the relevant text of 1467. Gian Mario had been in this year 1467 in Verona (Venetian territory), as a story with a woman in Milan had given him a few days in prison, still in the time, when Francesco Sforza was still living.

Trasferitosi infine a Milano, il F. affiancò il padre nella disputa pubblica con il letterato Lodrisio Crivelli, ma dovette ricadere presto nelle solite dissolutezze se nel luglio 1465 fu addirittura ferito da un giovane, probabilmente per questioni di donne. Di una relazione con una certa Caterina e della continua frequentazione di luoghi malfamati testimonia d'altronde una lettera del duca del 15 luglio, che lo richiamava ad una condotta più degna. L'atteggiamento diffamatorio assunto nei confronti di Pio II, morto da poco, gli costò, insieme con il padre, alcuni giorni di prigione e lo indusse ad abbandonare la città: riparò presso Guglielmo Paleologo marchese di Monferrato, dove si trattenne per circa in anno. Partito quindi con l'intenzione di dirigersi a Roma, a causa della guerra che imperversava nelle Marche tra il papa Paolo II e Ferdinando d'Aragona approdò a Verona.

I note this, cause 15th of July 1465 is relatively near to the bride-journey + bride-festivities of Ippolita Sforza in May/June 1465. Interestingly Gian Maria goes after the scandal for a year or something like that to "Guglielmo Paleologo marchese di Monferrato", who - if I see this correctly - was this man ...

Guglielmo VIII del Monferrato
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guglielmo_VIII_del_Monferrato

Guglielmo VIII, Mgve of Montferrato (1464-83), *Casale 19.7.1420, +Casale 1483; 1m: 19.1.1465 Cts Marie de Foix (*after 1452 +1467); 2m: Milano 18.7.1469 Elisabetta Maria (*Milan 1456, +Casale 1473), dau.of Francesco I Sforza, Duke of Milan; 3m: 6.1.1474 Jeanne Bernardine (*ca 1450, +Casale 17.2.1485), dau.of Jean I de Brosse, by Nicole de Chatillon, Css de Penthiévre

This one was a 2nd son on the throne, after his brother had died 1464. Guglielmo (then 44 years old) needed urgently a heir and married January 1465 (wife 15 years old), so "recently", before Gian Mario Filelfo arrived there. The wife died 1467, and Guglielmo married Elisabetta Sforza (13 years old) in July 1469.
MikeH, you showed interest in that earlier.
Elisabetta died 1473. Guglielmo, still without male heir, married again 1474 and died 1484, his wife died one year later. Still without heir, a brother took Montferrat.

The later Montferrat house descended from the Byzantine emperors with Theodore I of Montferrat. The earlier Montferrat house was active in crusades and had titles like Queen of Jerusalem, King of Jerusalem etc.

Sofia of Montferrat...
Sofia, Emps of Constantinople, *Casale 1396/99, +Turin 10.12.1437; 1m: 1406 (anulled 1411) Filippo Maria Visconti, Ct of Pavia (*Milan 23.9.1392, +Milan 13.8.1447); 2m: 19.1.1421 (div 1426) Ióannés VIII Palaiologos, Emperor of Byzantium (*16.12.1392, +31.10.1448)
..., once an Empress of Constantinople (wife of John VIII, the emperor at the council) and
then divorced, was an aunt to Guglielmo.

Likely this relationship made Gian Mario Filelfo's presence in Montferrat natural.

MikeH

Huck: Stausberg explicitly excludes that Filelfo made Zoroaster the philosophical progenitor of Plato's theories.

In einer Oratio aus dem Jahre 1429 (!), in der Zoroaster bereits als Fürst der Mager bei den Persen erwähnt wird, legt sich Filelfo noch nicht auf eine Reihenfolge fest,..

So whatever he got earlier from Plethon, it was surely second-hand and not much. For Filelfo he becomes the "first philosopher" only later.

And Kwaw, I forgot that you had posted the Greek of Proclus. I could have saved myself some work!

I managed to try to translate more of Stausberg, pp. 130-141. Only one footnote, 299, looked itneresting. Stausberg original:

Wenngleich Agryropoulos sich streng an Aristoteles orientiert, so ist er doch überzeugt, daß er den krönenden Abschluß einer einheitlichen vor-aristotelischen Philosophiegeschichte darstelle -- eine unverkennbare Parallele zu Ficinos und Filelfos Begründung der Größ Platons! Die Einheit der Pgilosophie wird by Argyropoulos nicht statisch-harmonistisch, sondern als ein Prozeß gedacht, der sich in drei Schulen bzw. Stüfen entwickelt: der sokratischen, der platonischen, und schielßlich der aristotelischen.

Im Gegensatz zu Ficino und Filelfo schätzt Argyropoulos den Beitrag der vorsokratischen Philosophie allerdings nur sehr gering ein, wie deutlich aus der Einleitung zu einer Vorlesung hervorgeht, die er im Jahre 1460 über Aristoteles' De anima gehalten hat. Dort heißt es (in der Nachshrift Donato Acciaiuolis vom 5 November: "Es gab drei herausragende Geister. Ich übergehe Zoroster (omitto Zorfostrem [sic]) and viele andere bis hin zu Anaxagoras, die die Philosophie dunkel (obscure) und in Gesängen (in carminibus) überliefert haben. Es waren also drei, nämlich Sokrates, Platon und Aristotles. Die vorsokratischen Philosophen nennt er in der selben vorlesungsreihe (wie schon Filelfo) prisci philosophi. Bereits in seiner Vorlsesung über die aristotelische Physik aus dem Jahre 1458 hatte Argyropoulos hervorgehoben, die Wissenschaften seien zu Beginn (in ill principio) noch in einem rohen Zustand (crude) gewesen.

Er tritt somit eine erstaunliche Übereinstimmung mit Ficino (und teilweise mit Filelfo) zu Tage: Auch bei Johannes Argyropoulos gerät Zoroaster als erster der "Alten Philosophen" in den Blick, als deren Charakteristikum Argyropoulos (wie Ficino) herausstreicht, daß sie ihre Philosophie in Gesängen vortrugen. Was bei Ficino aber entscheidenden Rezeptionsspielraum bzw. intepretatorische Freiheit erlaubt und sich sogar ausgezeichnet mit seiner Theorie der religiösen Bedeutung der Musik verbindet,

Entsprechend der Unvereinbarkeit ihrer beiden philosophischen Projekte herrscht ein eigentümliches Schweigen zwischen Argyropoulos und Ficino. Ficino erwähnt den Aristoteliker immerhin einmal, wenn auch nur als Aristotles-Übersetzer, Argyropoulos hingegen nennt Ficino (in den bislang veröffentlichten Texten 299) nie. Dieser Graben scheint jedoch für die Studenten der beiden Gelehrten nicht bestanden zu haben, die wahrscheinlich sowohl Argyropoulos als auch Ficino hörten. Daher ist anzunehmen, daß ihr Zoroaster-Bild dementsprechend ambivalent war.

[Footnote] 299. In Argyropoulos' (noch nicht editiertem) Nachlaß finden sich noch ca. 1500 Manuskriptseiten an Vorlesungsnachschriften, die vor 1462 entstanden sind, vgl. Field, "John Argyropoulos and the 'Secret Teachings' of Plato" 304. Es ist daher nicht auszuschließen, daß Argyropoulos' Zoroaster-Rezeption vielschichtiger ist als oben auf Grund der bislang veröffentlichten Texte skizziert.

My attempt to translate:

Although Argyropoulos orientates himself strictly by Aristotle, nevertheless, he is convinced that he represents the crowning conclusion of a unity of pre-Aristotelian history of philosophy - an unmistakable parallel to Ficino's and Filelfo's foundation for the great Plato! By the unity of philosophy Argyropoulos means not static-harmonist, but a process that develops in three schools or steps: the Socratic, the Platonic and finally the Aristotelian.

In contrast to Ficino and Filelfo, Argyropoulos estimates the contribution of the presocratic philosophy, however, only very slightly, as comes out clearly from the introduction to a lecture which he presented in 1460 about Aristotle’s De Anima. There it is said (in the letter to Donato Acciaiuolis from the 5th of November): "There were three outstanding spirits. I pass over Zoroaster (omitto Zorfostrem [sic]) and many others as far as Anaxagoras, who delivered philosophy darkly (obscure) and in singings (in carminibus). These three were in fact Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. In the same lecture course he names the presocratic philosophers (like Filelfo already) prisci philosophi. Already in his lecture about Aristotelian physics from the year 1458, Argyropoulos had emphasized, the sciences at the beginning (in ill principio) were still in a brute condition (crude).

He steps therefore in astonishing agreement with Ficino (and partly with Filelfo), it is clear: Also with John Argyropoulos, Zoroaster is put as the first of the "old philosophers " in the view when of their characteristics Argyropoulos stresses (like Ficino) that they reported their philosophy in hymns. That allows, however, crucial room for reception-play or interpretive freedom with Ficino and combines even very well with his theory of the religious importance of the music, which is, for the Parapatetic Argyropoulos, who looks for a finished system of science, connected with a reverse evaluation: Zoroaster’s philosophy or science is considered by him as "dark" and "brute".

According to the incompatibility of both their philosophic projects, a strange silence rules between Argyropoulos and Ficino. Ficino mentions the Aristotelian only once; likewise, even only as an Aristotle translator, Argyropoulos, however (in the so far published texts 299), never names Ficino. However, this rift does not seem to have existed for the students of both scholars, who likely heard Argyropoulos as well as Ficino. Therefore, it is to be supposed that their Zoroaster picture was accordingly ambivalent.

299. In Argyropoulos' unpublished papers (still unedited) are found still approx. 1500 manuscript pages in lecture notes which appeared before 1462, cf Field, " John Argyropoulos and the 'Secret Teachings' of Plato" 304. Therefore it is not to be excluded that Argyropoulos' Zoroaster reception is more multilayered than apparent on the basis of that outlined in the so far published texts.

You will notice that Stausberg groups Ficino and Filelfo together most of the time, contrasting them to Argyropoulos. We should not conclude that since we have yet another Greek holding to Zoroaster as the originator of the Platonic philosophy, that it was a common view in Greece. Argyropoulos, too, had studied with Plethon, as I documented earlier from Woodhouse--even though he did not agree with him on the primacy of Plato over Aristotle. Scholarios studied with Plethon, too (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemistus_Pletho), and may have had similar views to Argyropoulos. As Ficino's teacher, Argyopoulos might have had arguments and/or documents for his position on Zoroaster that Ficino might absorb.

kwaw

MikeH said:
We should not conclude that since we have yet another Greek holding to Zoroaster as the originator of the Platonic philosophy, that it was a common view in Greece.

See my final notes in #102:

we have the chain 'Plato - Pythagoras - Aglaophemus - Orpheus' from Proclus;

and the chain 'Plato - Pythagoras - Zoroaster' is in Apuleius (Florida, Apologia & Plato and his Doctrines), who refers to 'Greek authorities' as his source - so whether it was common among Greeks or not, it was certainly attested by some Greeks (according to Apuleius) well prior* to Pletho.

(As to the availability of Apuleius - Petrarch for example owned a volume of his complete works (literary and philosophical) prepared between 1340-1343. The medici library has the complete works in manuscripts completed for them by 1425).

Kwaw

*Apuleius c. 125 – c. 180 : a Latin prose writer (most famously of 'The Golden Ass'). He was a Berber, from Madaurus (now M'Daourouch, Algeria). He studied Platonist philosophy in Athens; travelled to Italy, Asia Minor and Egypt; and was an initiate in several cults or mysteries.

kwaw

MikeH said:
Looking at Kroll's index and text (Greek, of In Rem), I notice that the Chaldean Oracles aren't even called Chaldean. They are called "logoi" or more frequently "theoparadotos pestagogia"--I may not have the transliteration right, I'll post scans when I have a chance. In the text, the quoted text is on separate lines, at least in the one case I looked at; I don't know if that is Kroll or in the original ms.

(theoparadotos mystagogia?)

Proclus refers to Χαλδαίος Θεουργων (Chaldean Theurgists) in connection with Fragment 58 of the Oracles at In Remp II.220 11-18 relating to how the sun "was established at the site of the heart"

And in Timaeus Proclus discusses the Platonic and Chaldean order of planets:

...Proclus eventually accepts the plausibility of the new cosmology. His main argument is the authority of the Chaldean theurgists. They hold the sun is set in the middle of the seven zones "having heard from the gods themselves that the solar fire 'was established at the site of the heart'.

MikeH said:
And Kwaw, I forgot that you had posted the Greek of Proclus. I could have saved myself some work!

Well, the online version has no index, and being an image scan isn't searchable - the index for one has usefull identifying some of the terminology used.

Re: Zoroaster (the first of the Theologos of the prisca) = Er (after Eros - according to the Oracles the First to 'leap from the Paternal Intellect' and the binding force of the universe and of the (tripart) soul).

Fits in somewhat by analogy with what I have posted elsewhere in the past re: the (TdM) Fool, Magician:

...according to Agrippa the Pythagoreans attributed One to Eros ~

"Why is love called a magician?" asked Ficino.

"Because" he replied, "all the power of magic consists in love."

"And what is this magician `love'? The mediating power uniting heaven and earth, gods and men."

Or as Diotima replied to Socrates question [in Plato's Symposium] he is like his Mother (Poverty) and Father (Reason / Zeus)

"And as his parentage is, so also are his fortunes. In the first place he is always poor, and anything but tender and fair, as the many imagine him; and he is rough and squalid, and has no shoes, nor a house to dwell in; on the bare earth exposed he lies under the open heaven, in-the streets, or at the doors of houses, taking his rest; and like his mother he is always in distress.

"Like his father too, whom he also partly resembles, he is always plotting against the fair and good; he is bold, enterprising, strong, a mighty hunter, always weaving some intrigue or other, keen in the pursuit of wisdom, fertile in resources; a philosopher at all times, terrible as an magician, wizard, sophist. He is by nature neither mortal nor immortal, but alive and flourishing at one moment when heis in plenty, and dead at another moment, and again alive by reason of his father's nature. But that which is always flowing in is always flowing out, and so he is never in want and never in wealth; and, further, he is in a mean between ignorance and knowledge."
end quote from Symposium by Plato.

We may make an analogy I think to both the fool/madman and to the magician. 'Poverty' represents the soul as lover, always in need, wanting and seeking for the beauty and goodness of the beloved' and in relation to the fool or madman we may see him as representing the soul as a pilgrim of love.

Too which we may note too that there are three virtues in the oracles that bring one back to god - Truth, Faith and Love - to which could we draw analogies with the triad of the TdM Lover card? The triadic divisions to which the chaldean and neoplatonic doctrines tend could also perhaps be applied to the three bestial figures on the wheel of fortune, representing the bestial nature of the souls of those who are enamoured of the passions of the mutable world of Fortuna?

"And what is he [love]?"

"He is a great spirit, and like all spirits he is intermediate between the divine and the mortal." "And what is his power?" asked Socrates. "He interprets," she replied, "between gods and men, conveying and taking across to the gods the prayers and sacrifices of men, and to men the commands and replies of the gods; he is the mediator who spans the chasm which divides them, and therefore in him all is bound together, and through him the arts of the prophet and the priest, their sacrifices and mysteries and charms, and all, prophecy and incantation, find their way. For God mingles not with man; but through Love."

Huck

kwaw said:
...
we have the chain 'Plato - Pythagoras - Aglaophemus - Orpheus' from Proclus;

and the chain 'Plato - Pythagoras - Zoroaster' is in Apuleius (Florida, Apologia & Plato and his Doctrines) ...

Thanks, Steve.

I'm not sure, that we all talk of the same here.

Plethon made an author-text-connection, assuming, that Zarathustra wrote the Chaldean Oracles. "This was a NEW connection", so it seems to be assumed by modern research.
The older author were the two Julians, father and son.
From the historical perspective this NEW connection was likely a rather stupid step, just an attempt to understand something.

The next question would be: How popular had been Zarathustra generally and WHEN and WHERE?

As VERY POPULAR I would define the state of the mind in a Zoroaster-believer. As there were a chain of believers till in modern times, so naturally we have the logical answer: Always since Zarathustra he was popular, similar to Moses, Buddha, Jesus and Mohammed, not to forget Lao-Tse and some others, the list might be big.

The believers of Zarathustra curiously are mostly found in India nowadays ("In 2004, the number of Zoroastrians worldwide was estimated at between 145,000 and 210,000." The second region for Zoroastrians after India are meanwhile the United states.)
When the number of believers became small in Persia, then the Zoroastrians were mainly in the region in and around Afghanistan. Here were curiously also the later Timurids (descendents of Timur Lenk). The Timurids curiously also went to India, around 1500. There they formed the Moghul dynasty, which still existed in 19th century.
I personally wonder, if the disappearance of Timurids in Persia-Afghanistan has something to do with the disappearance of Zoroastrians in Persia-Afghanistan.

In Persia Zoroastrianism had been once the religion of the state. Still some Zoroastrians live there. It's part of their history and likely Persians couldn't forget it completely.

Similar the Greek couldn't forget, once Alexander - their hero - had conquered Persia, and enough Greek had seen, that Persia was reality, and naturally also Zarathustra.

Those, which forgot - perhaps - about Zarathustra, might have been Western Europeans, who also forgot how to write and to read, at least a great part of the population. But a lot of Western Europeans vised as traders Greece and countries at the Black Sea and Egyptia and as crusaders they also detected some regions of the world. It's hardly imaginable, that everybody of these Westerners overlooked the earlier presence of Zoroastrism.

Easily it's believable, that the foreign name wasn't easily remembered. And we have not much pictures of Zarathustra for 15th/16th century, at least, when you try it with Google for images ... this seems to be a sign for "not very popular" ... but doesn't mean totally unknown.

Zarathustra would have been something for Montefeltro and his 28 famous men.

In his studiolo ...

SOUTH
Euclid - Vittorino da Feltre - Solon - Bartolo
Pope Pius - Bessarion - Albertus Magnus - Pope Sixtus

EAST
Cicero - Seneca - Homer - Virgil
Moses - Solomon - Thomas of Aquin - Duns Scotus

NORTH
Plato - Aristotle - Ptolemy - Boethius
Pope Gregory - St. Jerome - St. Ambrosius - St Augustinus

WEST
Hippocrates - Pietro Abano
Dante - Petrarca

Montefeltro took Moses as the oldest figure.

But the Schedel'sche Weltchronik 1493 ...

Zoroastes der weise. was (als ysidorus spricht) ein koenig Baractrianorum den Ninus der koenig in dem kriege ersluge vnd die bueecher verprennen hieß. von dem schreibet Solinus also. wiewol die erst stymm der die geporn werden ein waynen ist. vnd die sinn der frewd bis in den. xlij tag verzogen wird. so haben wir doch einen gekent Zoroastes genant der an den tag lachet daran er geporn ward. diser was der erst weise oder swartzkuenstiger vnd erforscher des gestirns. vnd hat zwaintzig mal hundert tausent vers gemacht. die selben kunst hat Democritus lang darnach erweitert. vnd Zoroastes reichßnet zu der zeit thare des vaters abraham.

Bactrianorum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactriana
Ninus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninus
Solinus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solinus
Democritus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democritus

When Zoroaster came on the world, he started to laugh (although usual persons need 42 days to learn this).

Leber Tarocchi: King of Batons, Ninus (killed Zarathustra and burnt his books)

Zarathustra wrote 2.000.000 verses.

He was the first wise man or Schwarzkünstler (= alchemist) and researcher of the stars.

Democitus known as the "laughing philosopher", made many journeys, perhaps even to India. He had a Persian teacher, a magi and pupil of Zoroaster, named Ostanes. Possibly he became 90, 104 or 109 years old.
He had a rather good argumentation.

Crying Heraclitus and laughing Democritus (given to 1477)

samten

Further Plethonian Food For Thought . . .

In her entry on: Plethon, Georgios Gemistos, in the Dictionary of Gnosis & Western Esotericism, Prof. Brigitte Tambrun writes:

“On his return to Mistra, Plethon continued writing a work on the ideal constitution, the Book of Laws, which was only to be made known to the so-called phratores, members of the phratria which he assembled around him (the term, adopted from antiquity, originally referred to a political and religious subdivision of the polis; Plethon’s phratria was supposedly a secret philosophical and religious association with branches in Italy).”

Täschner

“ . . . suggests that the model of the secret society he believes Pletho to have maintained for the instruction of an esoteric group of students is to be found in the heretical Futuwwa orders that had grown up around the fringes of orthodox Islam in the latter part of the fourteenth century.” Anastos, Pletho, p.271
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futuwwa

Polymnia Athanassiadi-Fowden gives us further evidence of the transmission which Plethon would have been the last great Hellenic initiate:

“C. N. Sathas, throws further light on the survival of the Neoplatonic tradition in Byzantium; in this volume Sathas gathered texts in support of his thesis that Neoplatonic Hellenism as the rival of Christianity remained alive in Byzantium and was secretly transmitted from generation to generation.”

In his Review, John Monfasani notes:

“But Woodhouse (p.41) foreswears Masai’s vain attempt to prove that a secret pagan brotherhood spread from Mistra to Italy.”

Anastos, Milton V. 'Pletho's Calendar and Liturgy', Dumbarton Oaks Papers, IV, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1948.
Polymnia Athanassiadi-Fowden, Julian and Hellenism. An Intellectual Biography, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1981, p.125 note 34.
F. Masai, Pléthon et le platonisme de Mistra, Paris 1956.
John Monfasani, Review of Woodhouse , Renaissance Quarterly, Vol. XLI, No.1, p.117.
C. N. Sathas, Documents inédits relatifs à l'histoire de la Grèce au Moyen-Age vii, Paris 1888.
Dictionary of Gnosis & Western Esotericism, Edited by Wouter J. Hanegraaff. In collaboration with Antoine Faivre, Roelof van den Broek, Jean-Pierre Brach, Brill, Leiden – Boston, 2006, pp.960 -61.

MikeH

I'm back, after an all too short vacation.

First: Samten, thanks for the references, Tambrun seems especially worth paying attention to, as she has numerous recent publications. They are in French, but I will do my best.

Second: Kwaw wrote,

Proclus refers to Χαλδαίος Θεουργων (Chaldean Theurgists) in connection with Fragment 58 of the Oracles at In Remp II.220 11-18 relating to how the sun "was established at the site of the heart"

And in Timaeus Proclus discusses the Platonic and Chaldean order of planets:

...Proclus eventually accepts the plausibility of the new cosmology. His main argument is the authority of the Chaldean theurgists. They hold the sun is set in the middle of the seven zones "having heard from the gods themselves that the solar fire 'was established at the site of the heart'.

Thanks for these citations. I can see from them how someone like Filelfo could have determined, in his reading of Proclus, that the "logia" were Chaldean verses, too. But surely he must have been told, for at least some of them, that they were Chaldean, by his teachers in Greece, including Plethon. The two verses you cite by "Chaldean theurgists" aren't by themselves enough to justify extending the name "Chaldean" to all the other verses that are just called "logia." It would have taken information derived from Psellus, in particular, to know which logia were Chaldean and which were something else, e.g. Orphic. Plethon, perhaps guided by his mysterious Jewish teacher, was the one who used Psellus to construct a recognizable Chaldean system.

Strangely, Steve, when I click on your links--the words underlined in your post--all I get from Google Books is "You have either reached a page that is unavailable for viewing or reached your viewing limit for this book." None of pages 27 through 135 show up for me in the Google Books preview of Majercik's edition of the Chaldean Oracles--and precious few of the other pages of that book, either. I wonder if Google Books is being more generous in the UK than in the US. Fortunately, the book itself arrived by Interlibrary Loan just before I went on vacation, so I now have a copy to look at. And when I look up Fragment 58, indeed I find there Proclus's comment that it comes from "Chaldean theurgists." It helps, in discussing the Chaldean Oracles, to have a decent edition of them at hand!

Kwaw wrote

: Zoroaster (the first of the Theologos of the prisca) = Er (after Eros - according to the Oracles the First to 'leap from the Paternal Intellect' and the binding force of the universe and of the (tripart) soul).

Fits in somewhat by analogy with what I have posted elsewhere in the past re: the (TdM) Fool, Magician:

...according to Agrippa the Pythagoreans attributed One to Eros ~

"Why is love called a magician?" asked Ficino.

"Because" he replied, "all the power of magic consists in love."

"And what is this magician `love'? The mediating power uniting heaven and earth, gods and men."

Or as Diotima replied to Socrates question [in Plato's Symposium] he is like his Mother (Poverty) and Father (Reason / Zeus)

"And as his parentage is, so also are his fortunes. In the first place he is always poor, and anything but tender and fair, as the many imagine him; and he is rough and squalid, and has no shoes, nor a house to dwell in; on the bare earth exposed he lies under the open heaven, in-the streets, or at the doors of houses, taking his rest; and like his mother he is always in distress.

"Like his father too, whom he also partly resembles, he is always plotting against the fair and good; he is bold, enterprising, strong, a mighty hunter, always weaving some intrigue or other, keen in the pursuit of wisdom, fertile in resources; a philosopher at all times, terrible as an magician, wizard, sophist. He is by nature neither mortal nor immortal, but alive and flourishing at one moment when heis in plenty, and dead at another moment, and again alive by reason of his father's nature. But that which is always flowing in is always flowing out, and so he is never in want and never in wealth; and, further, he is in a mean between ignorance and knowledge."
end quote from Symposium by Plato.

We may make an analogy I think to both the fool/madman and to the magician. 'Poverty' represents the soul as lover, always in need, wanting and seeking for the beauty and goodness of the beloved' and in relation to the fool or madman we may see him as representing the soul as a pilgrim of love.
...
"And what is he [love]?"

"He is a great spirit, and like all spirits he is intermediate between the divine and the mortal." "And what is his power?" asked Socrates. "He interprets," she replied, "between gods and men, conveying and taking across to the gods the prayers and sacrifices of men, and to men the commands and replies of the gods; he is the mediator who spans the chasm which divides them, and therefore in him all is bound together, and through him the arts of the prophet and the priest, their sacrifices and mysteries and charms, and all, prophecy and incantation, find their way. For God mingles not with man; but through Love."

Yes indeed, a good Platonic analysis of the Magician, the Lover, and the Madman. I like it. And I can see how the Chaldean system, with its various complexities, developed from this. The deity representing magic becomes Hecate rather than Eros, and Eros becomes a transcendent figure, an initiation-master for the Empyrian world (see below).

Kwaw wrote,

Too which we may note too that there are three virtues in the oracles that bring one back to god - Truth, Faith and Love - to which could we draw analogies with the triad of the TdM Lover card?

Very interesting, Steve. I presume that Truth is the woman on the left, with the laurel wreath on her head, and Faith the one on the right, putting her hand on the Lover's heart. It is as in Alciati's emblem 9, the "image of faithfulness," (http://www.mun.ca/alciato/e009.html)

except that on the right we would have "fides" (faith) instead of "honos" (honor).

The Oracles associate Truth, Faith, and Love with the three cosmic "teletarchs," one for each of the three realms in the Chaldean cosmos. Majercik comments, pp. 11-12 (and here I do my best to transliterate the Greek words, as I don't know how to make the keyboard type Greek):

Beneath the Iynges and Connectors are located the Teletarchs (teletarchai, lit. "masters of initiation"; see fr. 85 and 86), divine entities which are assimilated to the cosmagoi as rulers of the three worlds of Chaldean cosmology...

The Teletarchs are also associated with the Chaldean virtues of Faith (pistis), Truth (aletheia), and Love (eros; see fr. 46), which function as faculties of the three rulers; Faith is connected with the Material Teletarch; Truth with the Ethereal Teletarch; Love with the Empyrean Teletarch. (A fourth virtue, "fire-bearing Hope"--Elpis purnoxos--is also mentioned; see fr. 47.) As such, these virtues are not to be understood as spiritual qualities (as is the case with the Pauline triad of Faith, Hope, Charity), but as cosmic entities involved in the very creation and maintenance of the Universe: "For all things," says the oracle, "are governed and exist in these three (virtues)" (fr. 48)...

In addition, Faith, Truth, and Love are also understood in a theurgic sense, as it is through these three virtues that the theurgist is said to unite with God (see fr. 48 and notes)....

This last emphasis again connects these three virtues with the Teletarchs, as these three rulers are responsible for both purifying the ascending soul of material influences as well as guiding its journey upward. (As noted supra, it was through the medium of the Teletarchs that the rays of the sun--or "Material Connectors"--were conducted downward. It was on these rays, then, that the soul ascended, guided by the Teletarchs.) Further, all three Teletarchs have additional solar connections: the Empyrean Teletarch is associated with Aion (the tansmundane sun) as the intelliglble source of light, the Ethereal Teletarch is associated with Helios (the mundane sun) as the direct source of the earth's light; the Material Teletarch is associated with the moon and, as such, rules the sublunar zone traversed by the rays of the visible sun.

I think we have here an explanation for the sunburst that frames Cupid in the Marseille Love card: he is the Chaldean Eros coming forth from the transmundane Sun.

As for the Ethereal realm, it includes more than the mundane sun; Majercik says (p. 16f)

The Chaldean concept of the cosmos envisions a triad of concentric circles which encompasses both the intelligible and sensible orders: the Empyrean World is properly that of the intelligible; the Ethereal, that of the fixed stars and planets; the material comprises the sublunar realm including Earth. However, such a distinction is not explicitly made in the extant fragments (but cf. fr. 76 and see frr. 39, 61, 62, 67) but is based on information from the later Neoplatonists.

It would seem that the Ethereal realm does not include all the planets, as Majercik also says, in the previous quote, "the material Teletarch is associated with the moon." And later (p. 17):

...each of the three worlds can be viewed as a 'fiery' circle dominated, respectively, by the transmundane sun, mundane sun, and moon, each of which, in turn, is equated with one of the three Teletarchs.

It seems to me that these three worlds might be reflected in the PMB 2nd artist's Star, Moon, and Sun cards. Stars are part of the the Ethereal world, and as such represent Truth--in Christian terms, Truth as embodied in Christ, the "bright and morning star" of the 2nd coming, heralded by the Star of Bethlehem. Thus the card shows a star in its upper corner, to which a woman prays. It is similar to the Cary-Yale Hope card. The woman embodies Hope, while the star is Truth.

The Moon is associated with the Material world, and the corresponding virtue is Faith. So we have the vicissitudes of material life, against which Faith is the light in the darkness. The Moon's Goddess in the Oracles is Hecate, holding the bridle of chastity as the means for purifying our material being. She corresponds to Faith in the Cary-Yale

The Sun is in this case the transmundane sun, from which all light, spiritual and material, derives. The child suggests Cupid, i.e. Eros, as in the case of the Love card. corresponding more closely, it is the child of fr. who appears in visions riding on rays of fire. It corresponds to the virtue of Charity in the Cary-Yale.

It seems to me that this same interpretation extends to the Marseille cards. The Star is still the star of Truth; the lady's nakedness suggests the nakedness of truth, uncovered and unadorned; her jugs, one or both, offer hope.The Moon card has Hecate's hounds instead of chastity's bridle; the fear these demons inspire in the sublunar world is another test for the sake of purification. The children or male-female couple on the Sun card embody love, in the case of the children that of the Gemini, the twins, for each other; generalizing, the love is for all humanity. The drops that we see in the air on the cards are the rays sent down from the transmundane sun by the "Material Connectors" to guide the soul upwards.

Huck wrote

Interestingly Gian Maria goes after the scandal for a year or something like that to "Guglielmo Paleologo marchese di Monferrato"...
Guglielmo (then 44 years old) needed urgently a heir and married January 1465 (wife 15 years old), so "recently", before Gian Mario Filelfo arrived there. The wife died 1467, and Guglielmo married Elisabetta Sforza (13 years old) in July 1469.
MikeH, you showed interest in that earlier.
Elisabetta died 1473. Guglielmo, still without male heir, married again 1474 and died 1484, his wife died one year later. Still without heir, a brother took Montferrat.

The later Montferrat house descended from the Byzantine emperors with Theodore I of Montferrat. The earlier Montferrat house was active in crusades and had titles like Queen of Jerusalem, King of Jerusalem etc.

Sofia of Montferrat...
Sofia, Emps of Constantinople, *Casale 1396/99, +Turin 10.12.1437; 1m: 1406 (anulled 1411) Filippo Maria Visconti, Ct of Pavia (*Milan 23.9.1392, +Milan 13.8.1447); 2m: 19.1.1421 (div 1426) Ióannés VIII Palaiologos, Emperor of Byzantium (*16.12.1392, +31.10.1448)
..., once an Empress of Constantinople (wife of John VIII, the emperor at the council) and
then divorced, was an aunt to Guglielmo.

It has been my contention for a while (see http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=365&p=4821&hilit=elisabetta+sforza#p4821) that Elisabetta Sforza is the lady depicted on the PMB 2nd artist's Temperance, Star, and Moon cards, as shown by comparison with a c. 1480 Lombard portrayal in an altarpiece of a similar-looking lady in company with ladies looking like Bona of Savoy and Ippolita Sforza; the three had been together once, at Bona's 1468 marriage. As related to distinguished Greeks, her husband Guglielmo might have appreciated references to the Oracles in a tarot deck modified in her honor. That the postulated programmer's son had visited him a little before the time the marriage was contracted is another fact in support of my idea.

Huck

MikeH said:
It has been my contention for a while (see http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=365&p=4821&hilit=elisabetta+sforza#p4821) that Elisabetta Sforza is the lady depicted on the PMB 2nd artist's Temperance, Star, and Moon cards, as shown by comparison with a c. 1480 Lombard portrayal in an altarpiece of a similar-looking lady in company with ladies looking like Bona of Savoy and Ippolita Sforza; the three had been together once, at Bona's 1468 marriage. As related to distinguished Greeks, her husband Guglielmo might have appreciated references to the Oracles in a tarot deck modified in her honor. That the postulated programmer's son had visited him a little before the time the marriage was contracted is another fact in support of my idea.

Well, would be interesting to know, what kind of scandal had been behind the 1465 event with Gian Mario Filelfo. It relates to the Sforza court life short after May 1465 (preparation of Ippolita's bride journey), from which deciding things in matters of Tarot development might be suspected. Perhaps we find better details.

Georgius Gemistus Plethon

Huck

kwaw

Huck

MikeH

kwaw

kwaw

Huck

samten

MikeH

Huck