Tarot de Marseille spreads - or not?

I am (nearly) exclusively reading and learning with the Tarot de Marseille and other historic decks with non scenic pips. I was wondering about spreads... Most Marseille readings I saw here did not really use spreads, but rather 3 or more cards without fixed position. Exception would be the Tirage en Croix that seems to be classic for the Marseille deck, and I really like that one. Me, personally, am attracted to spreads but don't know this many that I feel "appropriate" for the decks I have and like.

EDITED TO ADD:
List of spreads that *might* be considered TdM spreads or are suitable for it:
- the Dynamic Hexagramme Spread by jmd. http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=58319
- the above mentioned Tirage en Croix: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=79794&highlight=marseille
- the oldest recorded spread ever by Comte de Mellet).
- Chronata's spread

How do you read with the TdM or similar decks, you historic deck users out there? Do you use spreads? If no - why not, and how many cards do you read? If yes - any recommendations for me?

Well, le Charior, I have a peculiar, some would say “weird” way of understanding the cards. I do not use physically reversed cards, but I consider that a physically upright card contains reversed meanings too, and the question would be which side is manifesting in a reading (Chariot = success or failure / Sun = life or death). For this purpose, in my humble opinion, any spread that allows a philosophical or behavioural connection between the arcana would be ok, ideally cross or circular patterns, and to be honest, I do not quite understand concepts of spread positions that do not correlate, that are loose statements. I am not sure, but it seems the linear reading would be sort of “traditional”: reading a sentence and telling a little story? Very seldom, do I use it, but it works. For my exclusive personal use, for very, very quick questions, I take two majors only, i.e, lost a small component of i-pod, where was it? Hanged Man + Temperance = no surprise, on the floor, under the dining-room table!

Lu

PS: Some idle moment from nursing!!!

well, rachelcat showed me the oldest/comte spread at a tarot meetup, except instead of two people one person turning over both stacks simultaneously. i've been using it exclusively for reading with my de la Rea since (which is a bit of a funny deck for me, also the only deck i own which i don't read reversals with...) and it's just been...SO stunningly accurate/on point. Like when she showed it to me, we were just turning em over not even seriously just to demonstrate the spread on got like a 7 pairs that were basically a perfect chronological description of the last few months of my life + advice looking forward and i was really just like 0___o and yeah.

obviously, i quite like it lol. and yeah, for me, being historical itself, i find it works nicely with the illustrative pips...

I love that spread, too, and I also do it by myself. It's great how you have to concentrate on turning the cards, with one hand the minors and courts while saying out (loud) the order from ace to king, and with the other the trumps without turning, unless you have a correspondence on the other stack. It's a little ritual that empties my mind. And I think it's beautiful how you don't know how many pairs you get - or sometimes no pair at all. Then I think, well, the cards don't have something for me on that, and I think about my question again, and come back to it, with a revised question, later.

Also the pairings of trumps and pips make for nice insights, I find. Glad someone else likes and uses this spread, too!

oh yes i also quite like the ritual aspect of it. since i do it with the de la rea, i add to the fun of that by counting in french or sometimes alternating counting in all the languages i know how to count in and... it's definitely different experience than regular reading/spreads.

oddly enough, i've never gotten no pairs, nor have i gotten again as many as that first time. but it is interesting, because its like the pairs that come up almost dictate sub-spread if that makes sense. like if its 1-2, it feels like this really strong kind of, yes, this is it, to the point, listen to this message thing. the time i got 7 it was like a whole little chronological story. last reading i did i got 4, and what was really interesting each pair referred to a different aspect of my life, really like a 'conventional' spread would (money/career, romance, challenges/obstacles, overall advice)...like the minor was signifying that, and the major giving accompanying advice. seriously sub-spreads within larger spreads...

funny though. i don't feel the desire to use that spread with any other deck. i don't feel the need to use any other spread with the de la rea. they just...go together for me now :0

I prefer not to use spreads when reading with a TdM.
I always use odd numbers and either lay out 3 of 5 cards, whatever feels right. I just ask a question and lay out the cards, ask another and lay out some more.

I tend to end up with a sort of spread at the end though, especially if I ask about the situation and lay out three cards then what's blocking me and lay out another three then what I can do about it and lay out three more.
I end up with three rows that can be read horizontally and vertically to see the progression (if you know what I mean)..

I don't like spreads with a TdM because I find it difficult to read the cards individually, preferring to see them relating to other cards.

Hey Sulis, thanks for sharing! I do read with three cards a lot myself, but never tried five.

Sulis said:

I don't like spreads with a TdM because I find it difficult to read the cards individually, preferring to see them relating to other cards.

Click to expand...

I totally get what you mean, and that's why I feel a lot of spreads with very fixed positional meanings don't work for the TdM. But the experiences I had with the Tirage en Croix and the Dynamic Hexagramme spread, and the Comte de M. spread mentioned above, hve led me to like spread. But they have to be open and flexible enough for these relations between cards, the interaction, that is the magic of the TdM.

If I only draw cards, and continue drawing more, I have the feeling I am missing a frame of reference, a guideline... But it's hard to find spreads that are giving some guidance, but still stay open enough for the TdM.

le_charior said:

How do you read with the TdM or similar decks, you historic deck users out there? Do you use spreads? If no - why not, and how many cards do you read? If yes - any recommendations for me?

Click to expand...

When I use positions with assigned meanings, I tend to favor the Tirage en Croix, either the traditional trumps-only, or drawing from all 78 cards, usually depending on what deck I'm using. But there are a few spreads I might use too.

One is a magic square that is in the LWB for my Piatnik TdM. It uses nine cards, drawn in the numerical order below, and laid out in a three by three square.

8 1 6
3 5 7
4 9 2

The cards in the central column are trumps, the cards in the side columns are from the rest of the deck. The top row is for the past, the middle row is for the present, and the bottom row is for the future. The central, trump, card shows the principal influence on that time, the side (pip or court) cards show the positive (reader's right) and negative (reader's left) aspects of those influences.

I keep a deck separated for this spread. Although it's occurred to me that I could just deal off the top of a shuffled deck until I come to a card of the sort I need.

Once in a while, I'll lay out Talisman's teacup spread. I think of that as my big spread, even though the magic square uses one more card. The Talisman spread takes up more room, unless you overlap the cards.

I don't have any reservations about using any spread that appeals to me with an old-fashioned deck. I don't seem to be alone in this. Fred Gettings uses the Celtic Cross as an all-trumps spread in his book on the TdM. And it's not unusual to find it in the LWB with a Marseille deck. I never use the CC, but that's not because I think it's inappropriate with an old-fashioned deck. It just don't like that spread.

It seems to me that some spreads actually won't work with non-scenic pips. Robert Place's three card spread seems to be one of these: it depends on which way the main character(s) in the cards are facing. But a member here said it works fine with non-scenic pips, and she's someone I much respect. But apart from that sort of limitation, I personally don't think of spreads not particularly designed for the TdM as being inappropriate for it.

As for recommendations, I don't really have any. Papus has a couple of spreads in the back of Tarot of the Bohemians. Presumably they're for the TdM, since that's the deck he recommends in the book. I've never tried either of them, because they look like way too much trouble.

Philippe Camoin has a method that, like Place's, depends on the direction the figure is facing. But Camoin intends his to be a TdM trumps-only reading. I haven't tried it, because again it looks like a lot of trouble -- you have to keep laying down cards until all the loose ends are tied up.

Thanks for the reply, shaveling! Nice suggestions, I like the tea cup, it looks playful without being silly. Will try that one. And thanks for the Piatnik one, too, I have the deck, so I could even look it up. Maybe a good idea anyway, finally read all the LWBs I never opened...

shaveling said:

One is a magic square that is in the LWB for my Piatnik TdM. It uses nine cards, drawn in the numerical order below, and laid out in a three by three square.

8 1 6
3 5 7
4 9 2

The cards in the central column are trumps, the cards in the side columns are from the rest of the deck. The top row is for the past, the middle row is for the present, and the bottom row is for the future. The central, trump, card shows the principal influence on that time, the side (pip or court) cards show the positive (reader's right) and negative (reader's left) aspects of those influences.

I keep a deck separated for this spread. Although it's occurred to me that I could just deal off the top of a shuffled deck until I come to a card of the sort I need.

Click to expand...

It does look a bit complicated. I could never remember the order in which to lay the cards, and then some are trumps and some minors... But fascinating that it's a 3 x 3 cards clutter, too, I sometimes use Chronata's spread that has the same layout. Seems appropriate, three rows of three cards.

As for the Camoin method - I don't know it at all, but I don't like the idea too much to using more and more cards. For me personally a fixed number of cards in which you have to find your answer seems to work better.