Just curious about I Ching readers

HEY, MARION...Here's another translation you might like...

Marion said:

...I check out the two hexagrams which bother me the most, 44 and 54. In the Wilhelm/Baynes version these are (to me) worrisomely sexist hexagrams. The first is about a woman who dares to present herself as equal to a man. In the late eighties, when I was working so hard to move my career ahead, I used to get this one often and many times it rocked me back, thinking that I was 'out of place'. 54 is The Marrying Maiden, wherein the woman enters a household as the lesser or second wife and needs to humble and obedient. Not strongly developed characteristics in me.
...Anyway, those are the hexagrams that I check in any new translation...

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Marion, one of my favorite translations is "A Woman's I-Ching," by Diane Stein.
This translation is what I think of as a kind of "Daughters of the Moon" version of the I-Ching. It is a very contemporary, exclusively feminine voice with Goddess, Wicca, astrological, and tarot references throughout the text.
I find that it balances the more traditional translations very nicely.
It is listed at Amazon.com with sample pages to view.
Although it is posted there as OOP, I get the impression that it is still fairly accessible, as I have seen it on the shelves of the bookstores I frequent.
Admittedly, I have ulterior motives in telling you about this book; I'm also interested in your opinion of such a modernized version of the Book of Changes...

Re: HEY, MARION...Here's another translation you might like...

Tauni said:

Marion, one of my favorite translations is "A Woman's I-Ching," by Diane Stein. .... I'm also interested in your opinion of such a modernized version of the Book of Changes...

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Hi tauni, yes I do have that translation.

I have several different translations, though nothing like the volume of them available... time and money. Some of them seem like tarot decks: theme translations, translations with overlays of different religions, translations aimed at work issues, at relationship issues, meditation translations.. sound familiar?

Anyway, for your first thought... do I like and use various 'modern' translations? Well, in an historical perspective even Wilhelm and Legge are 'modern' translations. I guess it goes back to that adage about all of us living in our own realities. When you are an ardent feminist/ Buddhist/ Ku Klux Klanner everything that comes to you comes filtered through your strongly held belief system. And of course we have beliefs of which we are not even aware. I think that is the value of the variety of I Ching translations, like the various tarot 'translations'. The message is couched in language and images that we can relate to and from which we can gain some value. If you are a woman struggling to find her place in the world, the patriarchal wording of the Wilhelm translation will daunt and confuse you and make you feel put down. If you are person deeply immersed in the world of commerce, the Stein translation will just make your eyes cross. But there are translations aimed at driven business people. Goodness knows when they get the time to read them, but not my problem....
I would never claim that I have some sort of pure world view, and some translations I just don't get. I do appreciate the Stein translation, though I do not live in her frame of reference.

What a relief...

...to know someone else is not immersed in just one version of the I-Ching/Yi Jing.
I was starting to think maybe something was wrong with my continued shift in translations. Actually, I basically bounce between three that I favor the most, with others like the Stein version to consult now and then.
However, I've always thought I should settle on one, like the "One" tarot deck.
It just ain't gonna happen!
Good point, Marion, about the "traditional" translation.
In your opinion, what translation of the I-Ching, available to us today, do you think IS most authentic?
If I can put my own reality and filters aside for just a bit, I'd like to examine that text.
I hope you don't say it's the Willhelm version. I found that writing dryer than chalk, and about as flavorful. Don't even keep a copy anymore.
I tried to research the answer to this question (very briefly, mind you), but there seems to be strong and numerous differing views. Very overwhelming...I frighten and confuse easily, so I gave up.

Another mild dis for 'Master' (who exactly appointed him?) Alfred Huang's version; his is an easy and simple approach, but the Yi is neither easy nor simple. Huang omits several of the 10 Wings, including the all-important 5th and 6th Wings. Despite his claim to have rewritten it eight times it's still got a number of careless errors.
I use both the Ritsema/Karcher and the more recent Karcher complete translation, but they're not for beginners. Jack Balkin's "The Laws of Change" is an excellent synthesis of the best translations/interpretations. Sarah Dening's "The Everyday I Ching" is the best paperback original I know, but you should be aware that she's a Jungian analyst. There's no substitute for the completeness of the Wilhem/Baynes translation but there's plenty to learn from Richard S Lynn's equally scholarly version and from Richard Rutt's translation and discussion of the very earliest yijing text in "Zhouyi."
Of course you have to be pretty serious to study all these, but the Yi is an oracle that in my experience offers far more to the serious student than any other method of divination I've used.

Originally posted by fyreflye
...Jack Balkin's "The Laws of Change" is an excellent synthesis of the best translations/interpretations...

Glad to hear mention of this one...
I have just recently discovered Balkin's version, and you are spot-on about this excellent text. Very accessible, yet scholarly.

...Of course you have to be pretty serious to study all these, but the Yi is an oracle that in my experience offers far more to the serious student than any other method of divination I've used.

So true!
It is impossible to just "dabble" with the I-Ching, I have realized.
In light of that fact, I have chosen to study the IC over tarot or runes lately.
It is only when I finally decided to completely immerse myself in the IC, that I appreciated the awesomely infinite in truth and revelation to be had from it.
The I-Ching certainly requires the seeker to be a serious student; I believe that is when one will truly benefit from the guidance offered by the Oracle.

in the wings

Don't mean to sound foolish, but what are the 10 Wings?

I've only come across it after combing through Huang's book (I used to own Legge and Whilem before ditching them for Huang). Is there a complete text on the Yi King or will I always find errors and mis-translations??

Re: in the wings

Sayonaran said:

Don't mean to sound foolish, but what are the 10 Wings?

I've only come across it after combing through Huang's book (I used to own Legge and Whilem before ditching them for Huang). Is there a complete text on the Yi King or will I always find errors and mis-translations??

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There's nothing foolish about the question; popular versions of the yijing for the most part do not mention the Wings. The Wings are the accretion of commentaries on the original Zhouyi text, most of them neo-Confucian, that built up over centuries of use and have been added either to the Hexagram texts or as appendixes. The entire second volume of Wilhelm/Baynes consists of commentary, though Wilhelm integrates some of the texts into the comments on the changing lines in the first volume.
The original Zhouyi text is a brief collection of rhymed and prose statements reflecting popular wisdom sayings attached to the hexagrams. The neo-Confucian commentaries are attempts to systematize and
interpret the original sayings. The yi's reputation as a book of wisdom rests largely on the commentaries rather than on the original text.
The best translations and dicussions of the Wings are in Wilhelm/Baynes, the translation by Richard S Lynn and Richard Rutt's book "Zhouyi." You cannot understand classical Chinese culture, and thus yijing itself,
without understanding the 10 Wings.
There's a lot of information about this on the Internet, much of it unreliable. A good place to start is Steve Marshall's site at http://www.yijing.btinternet.co.uk/ Marshall isn't perfect but his yijing history, his book reviews and his links are a good corrective to the many "experts" who take your money and run.

ADDENDUM TO ORIGINAL POST:
1. It's Richard John Lynn, not Richard S. (my bad short-term memory at work.)
2 The only English-language translation of the 10 Wings that completely separates it from the Zhouyi text is in Richard Rutt's "Zhouyi."
3. The Palace Edition is unlikely to be translated into English because the oldest known yijing text found in Han dynasty gravesites at Mawangdui in 1973 differs in so many ways from that of the Palace Edition that the latter can no longer be regarded as standard. Chinese scholars haven't even bothered to translate the P.E. into modern Chinese.

Chinese Commentaries on the I Ching

What I'd like to see is a translation (into English or French) of the Palace Edition of the I Ching commentaries. The Palace Edition is a pre-20th century Chinese language text that contains the I Ching text, including all Wings, plus commentaries (or snippets thereof) on the I Ching text by some 215 commentators from over the centuries. They include leading commentators Wang Bi, Cheng Yi and Zhu Xi.

Until then, we have:

- Wilhelm/Baynes: which has the I Ching text (including all Ten Wings), plus paraphrases of various of those commentaries from the Palace Edition but without name attributions (a deficiency which is too bad, as far as I'm concerned, as I like to know which commentator said what). My hunch is that much of what's in Wilhelm/Baynes in terms of commentary is from Cheng Yi and Zhu Xi's commentaries.

- Lynn's translation, which includes the I Ching text plus Wang Bi's commentary in full, along with snippets of commentaries by a certain Wang Bi subcommentator and by Cheng Yi and Zhu Xi.

- A pre-20th century French translation, by Philastre, of the text of the I Ching (hopefully including all Ten Wings) and of seemingly the entirety of Cheng Yi's and Zhu Xi's commentaries. I've examined it at the store; and it's definitely on my wishlist.

- Cleary's translation of the text (but not all Wings of the text) and of Cheng Yi's commentary. (From comparing with the Philastre translation, it seems that Cleary has paraphrased in the course of translation in the interests of readibility. For instance, the Cheng Yi commentary, as per Philastre's translation, has detailed discussion by Cheng Yi which specifically refers to the various particular Chinese characters in the text and which goes into detail about what various particular Chinese characters mean -- thus, reading could be a tough slog for non-Sinophiles, of which I am one.)

Re: What a relief...

Tauni said:

[BGood point, Marion, about the "traditional" translation.
In your opinion, what translation of the I-Ching, available to us today, do you think IS most authentic? [/B]

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I have no idea, though we seem to have gotten some interesting answers by other posters (sorry, I have been on the road since Sunday).
Here is an interesting web site though:

http://www.yijing.btinternet.co.uk/

It is called: Calling Crane in the Shade and is mostly a site deidicated to reviews of I Ching books and translations. I am not sure it is completely up to date though. It seems to ignore some of the more recently available books. btw, for a readable modern translation, I also like Sarah Denning's and Thomas Cleary's versions. (can't recall who mentioned them)
The following
http://www.zhouyi.com/
has a ton of material and links.

Thank you Rusty Neon and fyrefly. I learned a lot from your posts. Some I knew already and some was new to me. I had not heard of the Lynn translation.

I assume this website is already known here - I only recently found it:
http://midaughtersiching.fortunecity.net

Some interesting divination advice - even if you don't agree with everything, it gives you much to think about.

Also some neat ideas about women and the ancient I Ching - backed up by fragmentary but compelling archaeological evidence. For those who (like me) find Diane Stein's "A Woman's I Ching" a bit grim and unrealistic, it's refreshing to see a more traditional perspective on the oracle combined with the idea that women don't need to "reclaim" or reinvent the I Ching - it has always been ours.

I would like to know if anyone has opinions about the I Ching translation mentioned on the above site: "The Book of Changes and the Unchanging Truth" by Hua Ching Ni.
Thanks!

Lorena