Darth MI  Darth MI is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 20 Sep 2013
Location: A
Posts: 122
Darth MI 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
You're covering quite some area there. My next step is usually to get you to choose an area of life and for me then to examine that in more detail using the relevant house(s) and Lots

As a general point the Lots were used for over a thousand years, and the Arab Astrologers in the early medieval period added quite a few of their own. The purpose of the Lot is to extend the analysis of a specific subject. So Lots related to Mother, Father, Children can give more information about family relationships. Lots relating to marriage can give more information regarding any marriage than just looking at the seventh house and its ruler.

The latter point is important because Lots are only used for their specific purpose The Lot of Armies (and police) mentioned by Al-Biruni (who was writing about a thousand years after the beginning of the Hellenistic period) is related to tenth house matters, such as the King (ruler) and government and their ability to perform their duties. The Lot is not applicable to an individual, unless he or she has a governmental role. It would never, under any circumstances be contrasted with, or even analysed with the Lot of the Mother, except where one is building a picture of a ruler's ability to enforce his rule and there is a belief that his mother is the real power behind the throne. For an ordinary 'citizen' the Lot of Armies is not relevant but the Lot of the Mother may be very relevant.

Lots themselves, like the Ascendant, are points. They do not and indeed cannot make aspects with each other. What matters is their house placement , their ruler and any planets that aspect them for good or ill

OK, pick me an area of Life that you want to know more about
So aspects to lot are a relatively modern concept?

I have a question does Lot of Army applies if you are in the military (not necessarily commanding ranks like colonel or related to civilian jobs like president)? I ask because my parent has Lor of Armies in Scorpio too and although we are specifically talking about traditional astrology in this thread, he is very Scorpio when it comes to the military but civilian life not so much minus paranoia (more due to life experience than natal chart). Granted he is Scorpio dominant but the fact he excelled when he joined the military in bootcamp and he still remains an above average soldier even in the officer ranks is what I ask.

I think Part of Armies in his 7th house.

Also do modern lots created by modern astrologers also apply? Is there a lot of astrology?
Top   #331
Darth MI  Darth MI is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 20 Sep 2013
Location: A
Posts: 122
Darth MI 

I would like interpretation for lot of mothers. IIRC its in the 7th house at 21 degrees.

If it can apply, lot of astrology too.
Top   #332
Minderwiz's Avatar
Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
Student of Astrology
 
Join Date: 20 Apr 2002
Location: Wigan, UK
Posts: 7,888
Minderwiz 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barkey Foreman View Post
So aspects to lot are a relatively modern concept?
I didn't actually say or imply that. I was talking about aspects between lots or betweenlots and other points such as the Ascendant or MC. Points (including lots) cannot make aspects and can only receive an aspect from a planet. Thus Mercury sextiles your Lot of Fortune (and as its ruler, that's a good thing).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barkey Foreman
I have a question does Lot of Army applies if you are in the military (not necessarily commanding ranks like colonel or related to civilian jobs like president)? I ask because my parent has Lor of Armies in Scorpio too and although we are specifically talking about traditional astrology in this thread, he is very Scorpio when it comes to the military but civilian life not so much minus paranoia (more due to life experience than natal chart). Granted he is Scorpio dominant but the fact he excelled when he joined the military in bootcamp and he still remains an above average soldier even in the officer ranks is what I ask.

........I think Part of Armies in his 7th house.
Al-Biruni relates the Lot of Armies to the tenth house. I can't see any other use than to relate it to the King, President, ruler or possibly government. I'll see if there's anything else I can find but to be honest, it's not a Lot that I've actually seen used by anyone. Al-Biruni simply mentions it. My feeling is that with your parent, the other personal lots are the place to start, when assessing why the military provides a better environement. That doesn't exclude Mars (ruler of Scorpio) playing a significant role, but I can't comment further without a chart.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Barkey Foreman
Also do modern lots created by modern astrologers also apply? Is there a lot of astrology?
Not within a Hellenisitic context. That is because many of the new lots feature the outer planets, which are not used in Hellenistic Astrology for obvious reasons. As for a Lot of Astrology, I've not seen one that I can remember but there Al-Biruni complained about the number of lots in use in his time. He actually lists over 150 of them. I can't see a Lot of Astrology mentioned in that list.
Top   #333
Minderwiz's Avatar
Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
Student of Astrology
 
Join Date: 20 Apr 2002
Location: Wigan, UK
Posts: 7,888
Minderwiz 
Some Personal Lots


Hellenistic Astrologers tended to use only a small number of Lots to begin with. The number grew over time and reached its zenith in the Arab Astrology of the early medieval period. To augment the Lots of Fortune and Spirit there are some other Hermetic and later Lots which can be used to assess the overall nativity.

The Lot of Basis - in your case this is in the third place in Capricorn. It's therefore ruled by Saturn, the out of sect malefic, which is averse to it. The Lot gives some indication of general happiness. The interpretation depends on it's relationship to Spirit and Fortune (from which it is derived) and their rulers. The Lot is averse to Fortune but lies in a tenth house relationship to Spirit. It's averse to Mars, the ruler of Spirit and is squared by Mercury, ruler of Fortune. None of that is particularly good. So don't see it indicating that your life is awash with happiness. Saturn as ruler of anything tends to put a dampener on that thing or area of life.

The Lot of Exaltation - which is a significator of overall success in life. Your Lot lies in Cancer in the ninth place. It is therefore ruled by the Moon, which in the tenth is averse to it. It is also averse to the Lot of Fortune, so it's unlikely that luck will take you to the top. The Lot is angular relative to the Lot of Spirit being in a fourth house relationship to it. This is a better placement than relative to Spirit. It's also angular to Mercury ruler of Fortune but is averse to Mars ruler of Spirit. Exaltation offers more than Basis, but it doesn't offer a huge amount. If you can overcome Saturn, you have a chance of a modestly successful life. If you can't then you will find that 'fate' doesn't often work in your favour and there's little that you can do about it because of inaction due to fear or pessimism.
Top   #334
Darth MI  Darth MI is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 20 Sep 2013
Location: A
Posts: 122
Darth MI 
BUT is it appropriate to use aspects between Lots in the modern context


Modern astrology's use of lots is so disorganized I seen various interpretations. Can't find the link I did sse modern use of aspects between lots.

I know we are talking about Hellenistic astrology in this thread but after I learn traditional is it fine if I add my own twists using modern and traditional concepts or even create new ones? So far aspects between lots such as lot of Armies opposite lot of violence,etc make very much a lot of sense if taken into account of the person's life.


As for Part of astrology, you can find it in the calculations list (which goes by alphabetical order of the lots name)

http://libracentre.com/arabic_parts_chart.php
Top   #335
Darth MI  Darth MI is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 20 Sep 2013
Location: A
Posts: 122
Darth MI 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Hellenistic Astrologers tended to use only a small number of Lots to begin with. The number grew over time and reached its zenith in the Arab Astrology of the early medieval period. To augment the Lots of Fortune and Spirit there are some other Hermetic and later Lots which can be used to assess the overall nativity.

The Lot of Basis - in your case this is in the third place in Capricorn. It's therefore ruled by Saturn, the out of sect malefic, which is averse to it. The Lot gives some indication of general happiness. The interpretation depends on it's relationship to Spirit and Fortune (from which it is derived) and their rulers. The Lot is averse to Fortune but lies in a tenth house relationship to Spirit. It's averse to Mars, the ruler of Spirit and is squared by Mercury, ruler of Fortune. None of that is particularly good. So don't see it indicating that your life is awash with happiness. Saturn as ruler of anything tends to put a dampener on that thing or area of life.

The Lot of Exaltation - which is a significator of overall success in life. Your Lot lies in Cancer in the ninth place. It is therefore ruled by the Moon, which in the tenth is averse to it. It is also averse to the Lot of Fortune, so it's unlikely that luck will take you to the top. The Lot is angular relative to the Lot of Spirit being in a fourth house relationship to it. This is a better placement than relative to Spirit. It's also angular to Mercury ruler of Fortune but is averse to Mars ruler of Spirit. Exaltation offers more than Basis, but it doesn't offer a huge amount. If you can overcome Saturn, you have a chance of a modestly successful life. If you can't then you will find that 'fate' doesn't often work in your favour and there's little that you can do about it because of inaction due to fear or pessimism.
What do you mean by significator? It mean its just a trend assuming you literally act as your birth chart says right? You already stated "overcome" in this multiple chart but I'm just a bit nervous about lot of Basis?


Also I would like to know the definition of Lot of Necessity (which is in Virgo). Does that mean I would need to learn about spartan lifestyle somepoint in life?Just my take because Virgo is often seen as the sign of abstinence and self-discipline

Also I already know you stated its a misconception that Parts need to be aspected to a planet order to play any importance but there is a perception that a lot needs power from a planet in order to have any effect. By power from planet, modern astrology states there needs to be hard aspects in order for a Part to even be activated. Most moderns go as far as stating there has to be a conjunction within 2 degrees for the Part to even have any effect on interpretation, other than that its just there and useless to the chart.

But you already emphasize a lot of things such as the houses and even aversions can bring out power from the lot.

How do the Greeks view lots?Do they view them as powerful as planets (or at least powerful enough to affect specific subjects like say that would normally be the domian of a planet such as love is ruled by Venus,etc)

Also I notice you seem to imply certain planets and houses are intrinsic negative. There's a perception by modern astrologers every planet and houses have strength and weakness. But I read in traditional astrology some houses like the 8th and planets like Saturn are Malefic. Your interpretations so far match this especially with Saturn. Where did it occur that every house and planet have positives and negatives?How would the Greeks have seen it? What do you think of avoiding anything being malefic by nature in modern astrology and whitewashing it up by adding random positives (8th is house of sex and transformation rather than death, Saturn is house of discipline rather than just being entirely pessimistic,etc).

Also how did Greeks view Scorpio?There is a perception the sign of Scorpio and Scorpio influenced charts-especially those dominated by Scorpio and having Scorpio as Asc-is a transformative sign and indication major transformation.

I don't buy this BS but what does my chart say about transformation, if this concept even exist in hellenistic astrology?
Top   #336
Darth MI  Darth MI is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 20 Sep 2013
Location: A
Posts: 122
Darth MI 

Last but not least did the Greeks view the signs in stages?

In Sun Sign astrology, there are stages for each sign.

For example in Scorpio; Lizard-evil sadistic cruel, Scorpion-struggling survival, Phoenix-Saint and embodiment of virtue

Pisces-downward Fish is a criminal of the worst type, middle ground is trying to overcome addictions, upward Fish is a Saint and matyr.

This is not just limtied to Sun Sign astrology, even modern natal astrologers emphasize things such as the "Phoenix stage of Scorpio",etc for Sun Signs and I seen some people who blend in traditional and modern astrology state the Ascendant is you and is in stages (one such hybrid astrologer told me to arise from the ashes and grow into the Phoenix in this lifetime).

Did the Greeks even believe in different stages for signs?Some moderns extend it to 10 or mroe!
Top   #337
Darth MI  Darth MI is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 20 Sep 2013
Location: A
Posts: 122
Darth MI 

Quote:
Now keep in mind that everyone has all the parts somewhere in their chart. They all can't be important. Narrow down the important ones by limiting your delineation to those that are in aspect to their dispositor or in aspect to one or more of the planets or points used in the formula. As one astrologer put it, the parts can be very enlightening or they can make nonsense out of any chart. Use them judiciously.
Quote:
4) Every chart has every part in it somewhere. All the parts cannot be of dramatic importance. Limit yourself to questions asked that pertain to the part. If asked about marriage look at the progressed or directed ruler of the part to help with a prediction. A part will be particularly active if the ruler of the part is in aspect to it. Otherwise, it is unlikely to play a major role in the life.
Those two quotes above are from two online astrologers claiming to practise traditional and should make what I meant clearer when I stated modern and even many traditional astrologers state Lots need power from planets (via aspects) to even have an effect.

Quote:
The native's spiritual life or lack of can be determined with these parts. This can give a great insight into character which ultimately is both related to and more important than the material.
A question-one traditional astrologer stated spiritual life and religion can be determined using ARabic Parts specifically Part of Spirit. I already know you stated the traditionals did not view spirituality in this way but there is so much stuff I don't know where to begin.
Top   #338
Darth MI  Darth MI is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 20 Sep 2013
Location: A
Posts: 122
Darth MI 

Does Saturnine indicate a tendency towards mistrust? I am going to put more details later and ask about aspects.
Top   #339
Minderwiz's Avatar
Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
Student of Astrology
 
Join Date: 20 Apr 2002
Location: Wigan, UK
Posts: 7,888
Minderwiz 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barkey Foreman View Post
What do you mean by significator?
A significator is simply something that represents or indicates a person or thing. Having a Rolls Royce is a significator of wealth. In the same sense planets can be natural significators, for example the Moon is a natural significator of the Mother or the Wife. Mars is a natural signifcator of a soldier, Venus is a natural significator of pleasure or sexual activity or young women.

But planets can also have accidental signification. The ruler of your tenth house (the Sun) has automatic signification of career or action. The ruler of your fourth house (Saturn) has automatic signification of your parents (both together) your father, (on his own) or your family in the sense of your extended family including ancestors. The ruler of the Lot of Fortune has signfication about how the external world affects you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barkey Foreman
Also I would like to know the definition of Lot of Necessity (which is in Virgo). Does that mean I would need to learn about spartan lifestyle somepoint in life?Just my take because Virgo is often seen as the sign of abstinence and self-discipline

Also I already know you stated its a misconception that Parts need to be aspected to a planet order to play any importance but there is a perception that a lot needs power from a planet in order to have any effect. By power from planet, modern astrology states there needs to be hard aspects in order for a Part to even be activated. Most moderns go as far as stating there has to be a conjunction within 2 degrees for the Part to even have any effect on interpretation, other than that its just there and useless to the chart.

But you already emphasize a lot of things such as the houses and even aversions can bring out power from the lot.
I was thinking of adding a short post on the hermetic lots (of which Necessity is one) so I'll answer that question later.

The Lots don't have to be aspected to be important. The Lot is interpreted through the condition of it's ruler and the placement of it's ruler relative to the Ascendant (and often relative to the Lot of Fortune). If the Lot is aspected then the aspect and the planet making it will be taken into account. Having your Lot of Fortune squared by Saturn or Mars means that your luck is likely to be poor, unless the condition of the Lot's ruler is very good. Even then, you will be less lucky than you would have been without the aspect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barkey Foreman
How do the Greeks view lots?Do they view them as powerful as planets (or at least powerful enough to affect specific subjects like say that would normally be the domian of a planet such as love is ruled by Venus,etc).

Also I notice you seem to imply certain planets and houses are intrinsic negative. There's a perception by modern astrologers every planet and houses have strength and weakness. But I read in traditional astrology some houses like the 8th and planets like Saturn are Malefic. Your interpretations so far match this especially with Saturn. Where did it occur that every house and planet have positives and negatives?How would the Greeks have seen it? What do you think of avoiding anything being malefic by nature in modern astrology and whitewashing it up by adding random positives (8th is house of sex and transformation rather than death, Saturn is house of discipline rather than just being entirely pessimistic,etc).
Firstly Lots are points, that means they don't actually do anything themselves. A Lot can't influence your life. But its ruler can and does. So the Lot of Fortune itself doesn't really do anything. But the ruler of the Lot indicates how well you can deal with, for want of a better word, fate, or what life throws at you. As I said above, aspects to a Lot will be considered by it's the planet that acts. The calculation of the lot tells us which planet has a lead role in the topic ruled by the lot.

Have you read modern Astrological views of Pluto or Neptune? They are not particularly nice planets and for Pluto there's not much good that can be said about it. Malefics are not simply traditional. Indeed I would argue that traditional Astrology is less 'malefic' or 'negative' than modern psychological approaches. The tradition has two planets who tend to signify (but not always) 'bad' things and two planets who tend to signify (but not always) 'good' things. That's a nice balance of 'good' and 'bad' In individual charts, it's possible that there may be more 'bad' than 'good' or vice versa but on the whole there's a balance.

Modern Astrology has two good planets (Jupiter and Venus) and five not so good (or even bad) planets, Mars, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. The 'bad' may be psychological conditions but I find many modern writers to be very fatalistic, certainly as bad as the worst in the past.

The short answer is that life is made up of events that we see as either good or bad. That does not have to mean there's nothing we can do. There always is, though we are not all as good or as well fated in maximising the best in life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barkey Foreman
Also how did Greeks view Scorpio?There is a perception the sign of Scorpio and Scorpio influenced charts-especially those dominated by Scorpio and having Scorpio as Asc-is a transformative sign and indication major transformation.
They didn't think in those terms, nor did any Astrologer till the twentieth century. They might well have seen a chart as dominated by Mars or Jupiter or one of the other planets but they would not see as dominating anything. Indeed they made use of parts of a sign as much as they made use of the sign itself. Thus the Bounds or Confines were given particular attention because each was a subdivision of a sign ruled by a different planet. The same is true of Decans. Thus your Ascendant falls in the Decan of the Sun and the Bounds of Mercury. These two planets will add further colour and dimension to your Ascendant, on top of that set by Mars. In short, Scorpio is not monolithic and not all Mars. Mars is the 'steward' the planet responsible for Scorpo but other planets have responsibilities for parts of Scorpio, though they are lesser rulers than Mars.

Concepts such as Progress or transformation (in the modern sense) were alien to Hellenistic thought. Change was usually decay, a falling away from an ideal. Not a movement towards perfection. Transformation was something the gods did to you and it wasn't always nice. You might get transformed into a stag, or a monster or a beautiful woman but this was divine, not you realising your inner goddess.

That's not to deny self improvement. You can improve yourself by learning and knowing more about yourself (but remember this is 2000 years before Jung). As Socrates pointed out, knowing that you were ignorant was at least a positive start
Top   #340
Elsewhere on the Tarot Forum
Popular Tarot Boards
· Using Tarot Cards
· Talking Tarot
· Tarot Spreads
· Tarot Decks
· Rider-Waite-Smith

Special Interest Boards
· Astrology
· Crystals & Herbs
· Divination
· Lenormand
· Spirituality

Popular Tarot Threads
· Pet Peeves
· Timing of cards
· Interesting tarot pairs
· The Moon as how someone feels
· The World as feelings

More Tarot Threads
· Cards for certain events
· Tarot meanings for health
· List of Tarot Questions
· Can Tarot be Dangerous?
· List of Tarot Myths



Elsewhere on Aeclectic Tarot
· Tarot Cards & Reviews
· Free Tarot Readings
· Tarot eBooks
· Tarot Card Meanings

Copyright © 1996 - 2021 Aeclectic Tarot. All rights reserved. Privacy Policy. Contact us. About us.