Minderwiz's Avatar
Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
Student of Astrology
 
Join Date: 20 Apr 2002
Location: Wigan, UK
Posts: 7,888
Minderwiz 
Schmidt Revisited - Application to Barkey Foreman


Barkey and Larxene you may be interested in these two recordings:

http://www.astrologiamedieval.com/Ro...ogy-Part-1.htm

http://www.astrologiamedieval.com/Ro...ogy-Part-2.htm

Which amount to around 4 hours of a lecture by Robert Schmidt. The second one goes through the process of identifying the three key planets and explains the nautical metaphor - that is our life seen as a ship sailing on a sea of fate.

The three key fates he notes are:

Destiny - where your life is headed (and Astrology will give some indication of whether you will get there.

Providence - how well fates work for you

Necessity - the need to deal with limitations and constrictions in life. That is accomodate to what is around you.

There are three key roles -

Setting the destination of life
Overseeing the destination
Navigating the life to it's destiny

The first role is played by the Domicile Lord of the Sect Light (unless the sect light is badly placed). In Barkey's chart the Sect light is the Moon, in Leo in the tenth Place. That makes the Sun, the planet that manages 'setting the destination' The Sun is in the fifth Place, so Destiny is likely to be related to Children and a 'happy' home.

The second role of oveseeing the destination falls to the Bound Lord of the Sect Light - in Barkey's case that is Mars, who also is the Ascendant ruler.

The role of Navigation, or the 'ship's captain' (kurios in Greek, which translates as Lord) is harder to determine. We examine a number of places in order and the planet is either situated there or rules to place is considered. In effect the planet which has the best fitness level is taken. The order effectively acts as a tie breaker as there may be more than one planet that is worthy of consideration.

The Places are:

1. A planet in the Bounds of the Ascendant

If there is no planet in the Bounds of the Ascendant then the order becomes:

2. Domicile Lord of the Ascendant
3. Domicile Lord of the Moon
4. Domicile Lord of the MC
5. Domicile Lord of the Lot of Fortune
6. Bound Lord of the Pre-natal Lunation
7, A planet making a phasis - Helical Rising of Helical Setting in that order.

That is the list from Delphic Oracle and I'd have to listen to Schmidt again to confirm it but from memory and scribbled notes they appear to be substantially what Schmidt says in his lecture.

In my next post I'll run through the planets that fill those roles and examine their level of fitness

Edited to Add

In his lecture Schmidt transposes 6 and 7. Not sure whether that was an error or by then it doesnn't matter much LOL
Top   #361
Minderwiz's Avatar
Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
Student of Astrology
 
Join Date: 20 Apr 2002
Location: Wigan, UK
Posts: 7,888
Minderwiz 
Barkey Foreman - Universal Hermetics


Oikodespotes of the Nativity (the one who sets the Destination)

The Sun as Domicile Lord of the Predominating Light (Moon)

The Bound Lord of the Moon is Mars who also is oikodespotes of the Ascendant degree

Sun and Mars are averse to each other, so Mars will find it difficult to monitor the Destination.

To determine the Kurios or Lord of the Nativity we need to look at the various places

I. Planet in the Bounds of the Ascendant - none

II. Domicile Lord of the Ascendant - Mars

Mars fitness is determined by 1 Conducive to business

a. In a place conducive to business - the fourth which is a pivot

b. Between Helical rising and first station - so direct and so conducive to business

c. In his own bounds and so conducive to business

2. Energy level

a. Goaded or energetic - angular in fourth using Porphyry quadrant system

b. no phasis

c Not in its own Trigon

3. Conducts Business in a way favourable to the native

a, In a good place (the fourth which is configured to the Ascendant)

b. In a chart of his own Sect

c. In his own Place (Bounds) A planet in one of their own places cannot be wholly malefic (N.B. Saturn is also in his own place)

Only 2 b & c do not score well, so Mars is the planet to beat.

I'll shorten the rest to preserve space.

III. Domicile Lord of the Moon
IV. Domicile Lord of the MC Both of these are the Sun. The Sun must beat Mars to become Kurios.

1. Conducive to Business
a. Yes - the fifth
b. Not applicable
c. No

2. Active
a. Succedent place but not as good as a pivotal place
b. Not applicable
c. No - it's in the Water Trigon

3. Business favourable to the Native
a. Yes - fifth house
b. Not of the ruling sect
c. Not in own place

The Sun is clearly not as fit as Mars.

V. Domicile Lord of the Lot of Fortune - Mercury
VI - Planet making a Phasis - Mercury

Mercury is in the sixth place
Is not of the Sect in Favour
Is in a succedent house by Porphyry (just)
Is in a place of a Sectmate (Exaltation of the Sun)
Will make a helical rising

VII. Domicile Lord of the prenatal Lunation - Jupiter

Jupiter is Retrograde according to Schmidt that alone virtually rules him out of consideration.

So Mars is not overtaken by any other planet. Mars is Kurios and responsible for navigating you to your destiny. However he is averse to the Sun who sets that Destiny.

Note that Venus and Saturn are not considered here according to Schmidt's list. Both are in their own Places, Saturn is angular (conjunct the IC) and is direct, though not of the sect in favour. Venus is in the fifth Place, direct but not of the Sect in Favour.

So on Schmidt's approach, Mars is your key planet, note this has little to do with Scorpio and more to do with his place in the chart, with being direct and in sect and in one of his own places. Mars is your key to getting Saturn to behave.
Top   #362
Larxene  Larxene is offline
Resident
 
Join Date: 03 Apr 2014
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 30
Larxene 

I could not process the information as it is, so I took the liberty to organise the information in my own way (I hope you don't mind).

_________________________________________


Barkey Foreman



1) Oikodespotes of the nativity. The one who sets the Destination.
Domicile Lord of Sect Light: The Moon is sect light, so the Sun is the oikodespotes of the nativity.

2) Sunoikodespotes[1] of the nativity. The one who oversees the Destination.
Bound Lord of Sect Light: The Moon's Bound Lord is Mars, who is also the oikodespotes of the Ascendant degree.
Sun and Mars are averse to each other, so Mars will find it difficult to monitor the Destination.

3) Kurios, Lord of the nativity. The one who navigates the life to its Destination.

Step 1. We need to look at various places to determine this:

I. Planet in the Bounds of the Ascendant: none
II. Domicile Lord of the Ascendant: Mars
III. Domicile Lord of the Moon: The Sun
IV. Domicile Lord of the MC : The Sun
V. Domicile Lord of Fortune: Mercury
VI. Planet making a Phasis: Mercury
VII. Domicile Lord of the prenatal Lunation: Jupiter


Step 2. Now we use the Preliminary Natal Analysis (PNA) to determine which one of these planets will be the Kurios.
Mars:

1. Conduciveness to Business

a) In a Place conducive to business? 4th House, a pivot: conducive
b) Between heliacal rising and first station? Mars is Direct: conducive
c) Dignified? Mars in his own Bounds: conducive

2. Energy level

a) Goaded or energetic? 4th House (Porphyry House system), angular: energetic
b) Is Planet in Phasis? No: not energetic
c) Is Planet in his own Trigon? No: not energetic

3. Conducts Business Favourable to Native

a) In a Good Place (Places configured to Ascendant are good)? 4th House, yes: favourable
b) Is Planet of the Sect? Nocturnal chart, yes: favourable
c) Dignified (A planet in his own places cannot be totally malefic[2])? Mars in his Bounds, yes: favourable

The Sun:

1. Conduciveness to Business

a) In a Place conducive to business? Yes: conducive
b) Between heliacal rising and first station? N/A
c) Dignified? No: Not conducive

2. Energy level

a) Goaded or energetic? Succeedent house, middling and mediocre
b) Is Planet in Phasis? N/A
c) Is Planet in his own Trigon? No: not energetic

3. Conducts Business Favourable to Native

a) In a Good Place? 5th House, yes: favourable
b) Is Planet of the Sect? No: unfavourable
c) Dignified? No: unfavourable

Mercury:

1. Conduciveness to Business

a) In a Place conducive to business? not conducive
b) Between heliacal rising and first station? Mars is Direct: conducive
c) Dignified? ????

2. Energy level

a) Goaded or energetic? Succeedent: middling and mediocre
b) Is Planet in Phasis? Yes: energetic
c) Is Planet in his own Trigon? Trigon of sect-mate, yes: energetic

3. Conducts Business Favourable to Native

a) In a Good Place (Places configured to Ascendant are good)? 6th: not favourable
b) Is Planet of the Sect? Follows the Sun, no: not favourable
c) Dignified? ????

Jupiter:

Jupiter is retrograde. Schmidt virtually [always] rules retrograde planets out of the consideration for Kurios



The Sun and the other candidates are not as fit as Mars. So Mars is the Kurios.[3]




[1] This is what I believe it is called. In English, it is the 'joint-domicile master' of the chart.
[2] What is your reasoning for this, Minderwiz?
[3] So what did we gain from this analysis?

Also, another question. You said:

Quote:
Note that Venus and Saturn are not considered here according to Schmidt's list. Both are in their own Places, Saturn is angular (conjunct the IC) and is direct, though not of the sect in favour. Venus is in the fifth Place, direct but not of the Sect in Favour.
It is a nocturnal chart, and yet Venus is not of the sect?
Top   #363
Minderwiz's Avatar
Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
Student of Astrology
 
Join Date: 20 Apr 2002
Location: Wigan, UK
Posts: 7,888
Minderwiz 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larxene View Post
I could not process the information as it is, so I took the liberty to organise the information in my own way (I hope you don't mind).
No of course not. I was in something of a rush so I went through using the notes I had from Schmidt's lecture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larxene
[1] This is what I believe it is called. In English, it is the 'joint-domicile master' of the chart.
[2] What is your reasoning for this, Minderwiz?
[3] So what did we gain from this analysis?

Also, another question. You said:

It is a nocturnal chart, and yet Venus is not of the sect?
Working backwards:

Venus is of the sect but she does not rule one of the seven places listed by Schmidt. I think she would only come into consideration of all the seven above failed to meet the criteria laid down.

On your list:

[1] I'm not quite sure what you're referring to ihere. Are you referring to Sect Light and Oikodespotes, or Oikodespotes and Sunoikodespotes.? The Oikodespotes is the Domicile Master of the Chart but he (or she) is not in sole control of the chart, and never is. There's some power sharing, especially between Oikodespotes and Kurios

[2] Schmidt's argument is that the Hellenisitic Astrologers had not one but three chart rulers, (though one planet could in theory occupy all of the three roles). He lists these as the Oikodespotes, the Overseeing planet and the Kurios. They appear in all charts and each has a distinct role. Oikodespotes set's the destination - Schmidt uses the analogy of the ship's owner, (incidentally, he claims that the nautical metaphor is found in many texts and I can verify that with some of the ones I've read). Kurios is responsible for getting the 'ship' to it's destination - Schmidt uses the analogy of the captain of the ship. If they don't see eye to eye, the ship might be at risk - vide Titanic where Bruce Ismay ordered Captain Smith to go to full speed in circumstances which proved to be dangerous.

[3] At the moment we're not looking at the chart interpretation from a topical perspective, but we have identified Mars as the key planet in the management of getting to Barkey's life's destination. Which could be 'children and activities at home' (Sun in fifth) or action, career, public activity (Sun rules the tenth and also is a natural significator of rulership and career. Mars offers a means to this end, which might well involve incisive action against enemies or rivals, cutting through problems instead of disentangling them or being bold.

That sounds good but Mars is co-present with Saturn, the out of sect malefic and Saturn might well signify delay, frustratation, injection of fear or incapacity to act. There's a tension between the two that threatens success in life. That tension must be addressed.

Venus is a significator of potential help but Venus is averse both to Mars and Saturn and to the tenth, though she is co-present with the Sun. Jupiter the out of sect benefic is also averse to Mars and is retrograde. So the benefics don't signal an awful lot of support. Mercury is sextile to Mars (and Saturn) and rules the Lot of Fortune but Mercury is in the sixth Place and is averse to the planets in Pisces in the fifth and indeed to the Ascendant. Mercury doesn't promise an awful lot of support either, except that Mercury does trine the tenth and the MC.

To me it looks like life will only be a success if there's a determination to act incisively and positively.
Top   #364
Larxene  Larxene is offline
Resident
 
Join Date: 03 Apr 2014
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 30
Larxene 

[Venus and Sect] Okay, but I just thought that it was not correct to say that it is contrary to the sect. But I understand your point about Venus not being fit to be Kurios.


[1] Here I am talking about the Greek term for the Overseer of the Destination. From my brief research, it is called the Sunoikodespotes. Am I wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius Cojoc View Post
In my opinion, the ruler of the Part of Fortune will not be Mars. In fact, I think that the Sun will be also the Second Officer and the Overseer (Sunoikodespotes).
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=3597705

Quote:
...The function of Sunoikodespotes is to oversight. In my opinion this notion implies: managmenet, control, direction and surveillance...
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewto...r=asc&start=30


[2] I was asking about why you think dignified planets are not wholly malefic. I agree with you but I want to know your reasons.


[3] Ah, so from this technique we discover the native's purpose in life, and what kind of things happen to him as he tries to fulfill his purpose, and how successful he will be in completing his raison d'etre.
Top   #365
Minderwiz's Avatar
Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
Student of Astrology
 
Join Date: 20 Apr 2002
Location: Wigan, UK
Posts: 7,888
Minderwiz 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larxene View Post
[Venus and Sect] Okay, but I just thought that it was not correct to say that it is contrary to the sect. But I understand your point about Venus not being fit to be Kurios.
I checked back to my previous post where I ruled Venus out and I made an error when I edited it during preparation. It does describe Venus as out of sect when it is not. I did correct that in my previous response but not explicitly.

So to repeat: Venus is in Sect. but as she does not occupy any of Schmidt's 7 places she is not considered unless a kurious has not emerged by the time they're exhausted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by larxene
[2] I was asking about why you think dignified planets are not wholly malefic. I agree with you but I want to know your reasons.
This is a direct quote from Schmidt, who bases it on statements made by Hellenistic Astrologers. It relates to malefics and it also it makes sense from an Astrological view point as dignity brings out the best in them almost by definition. That isn't to say that they suddenly become entirely benefic but it does imply that they can work in a way that is favourable to the native, at least some of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by larxene
[3] Ah, so from this technique we discover the native's purpose in life, and what kind of things happen to him as he tries to fulfill his purpose, and how successful he will be in completing his raison d'etre.
I'm not sure we can go that far for certain, although that's the impression I get. We can certainly work out whether then nativity will be eminent or not, using this together with the Lots of Fortune, Spirit, Basis and Exaltation. Schmidt refers to planetary 'agendas', which to me can only refer to one of two things, the inherent nature of the planet - that is it's natural signification - or to it's accidental role in the chart - by rulership or placement.

In this case the Sun as Oikodespotes, rules the tenth house of the chart. It has natural signification for 'praxis', that is action related to practical and business affairs, So, if I'm right that would be a probable life destination. The Sun is accidentally in the fifth house, so there's children and action related to home and leisure.

Please don't take that as being a certaintly, it's me exptrapolating from what I've read.
Top   #366
Minderwiz's Avatar
Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
Student of Astrology
 
Join Date: 20 Apr 2002
Location: Wigan, UK
Posts: 7,888
Minderwiz 
The Lot of the Mother


General observations:

There are two possible signifcators of the Mother; they are the Moon and Venus. Valens refers to both in this role, though he seems to give the Moon precedence. The Lot of the Mother is calculated as follows:

ASC + (position of) Moon - (position of) Venus : This is the calculation for a day birth

ASC + (position of) Venus - (position of) Moon : This is the calculation for a night birth

As the last term in a Lot calculation is the more important one, this seems to have led Joseph Crane to say that the Mother is signified by the Moon by night and Venus by day. I'm not sure that that is accurate for all considerations. Valens doesn't seem to make that distinction, except implicitly in the Lot calculation.

As you are a night birth, I think we can safely use the Moon as a general significator of your mother and the second calculation for the Lot of the Mother is univesally agreed.

Your Parents as such are the fourth House.

There is also a Lot of the Father, which uses:

ASC + Saturn - Sun by day and reverses this by night.

Lastly Valens does refer to the third House as the house of the mother and the ninth as the house of the father. However as these are the joys of the Moon and Sun respectively, I think he refers to them because of the pre-existing use of Sun and Moon for father and mother.

Your Chart

Your fourth house of Parents, contains Saturn and Mars. Saturn is out of sect but in his own domicile. Using Crane's signfication, Saturn would signify your father. Mars is your Ascendant ruler and is itself ruled by Saturn. So your father is the man in charge, at least in his own home and certainly while you are living there.

The Moon (signifying your mother) is placed in the tenth. The Moon opposes Saturn and Mars, though the opposition is closer to Mars than it is to Saturn. That seems to signify disagreements between the two of you and also disagreements between your parents on how you are treated and how you were brought up. The Moon is also trined by Mercury, the ruler of the Lot of Fortune - you probably found your mother easier to get on with or you found that you were 'luckier' at dealing with her. That's not to say that the opposition between Moon and Mars is removed by any means. It's a comparative. Of your two parents, your mother should be the easier for you to 'manage' Remember also that the Moon lies in the bounds of Mars. You have influence here and can dominate. Do you sometimes experience your mother as being 'distant' or there being a 'distance' between mother an father?

The Lot of the Mother lies in Taurus, in a partile square to Mars. Given that the opposition of Moon is closer to Mars and the square from the Lot to Mars is partile, your mother seems to give you significant problems. She's an obstacle in some sense, she frustrates you achieving what you want to achieve, though she's easier to manage or live with...that seems a contradiction but then life is full of them.

The Lot is ruled by Venus, which is in its exaltation in Pisces in the fifth. Venus is the other significator of the mother, and Venus is in the Place of Children. You've already told me tht your mother can sometimes treat you as a child, this placement seems to confirm that approach. She's in her element with you as a child, not an adult. It's going to be hard for her to adapt to you as such, and the exaltation simply suggests that she enjoys being seen on a pedastal as a mother - perhaps in a more modern sense, she enjoys being your mother and can end up smothering you when you need to spread your wings.

You can dominate though, if you wish to you can break free. Mars lies in the tenth sign from the Lot and this is seen as a dominating position in Hellenistic Astrology.

Your Lot of the Father, lies in Sagittarius. It is ruled by Jupiter. Firstly this shows that there's a definite benevolent side to him, though the condition of Jupiter suggests it's inhibited. Secondly the Lot lies in the terms of Saturn, The disciplinarian is still there. Interestingly, your ruler of the Lot of the Father opposes your ruler of the Lot of the Mother. This seems to reinforce the view that there's disagreements or opposition between your parents, yet there are clearly many harmonious connections as well. The Lot of the Mother lies in the bounds of Jupiter, ruler of your Lot of the Father. Venus, ruler of the Lot of the Mother is in Pisces, the sign of Jupiter and Jupiter is in the bounds of Venus.

So I can see apparent differences in their approach and manner towards you. Saturn suggests discipline as well as fear so I guess you had a fairly strict childhood as far as your father goes. but the Lots suggest that there's a harmony between mother and father as well. shown through the Lots. Better still the benefics rule the two lots.

The issue seems to be how you get the two of them to recognise your an adult and to release their benovolent sides in a more organised and controlled way.

Edited to add:

Some Hellenistic Astrologers use the Lot of Fortune as the origin of a second chart - and read off issues relating to how the world affects you and your health and wealth in regard to the usual house topics. In principle this could be done with the Lot of the Mother. So Gemini would be her house of substance, Leo would say something about her own parents (your grandparents and her own home), Scorpio would say something about her partner (your father) which is interesting because it's ruled by Mars, and I think you mentioned that he had a military background. I'm not sure enough of the validity of extending this to the other Lots but it's an interesting possibility, given the lack of a chart for her.

It's also possible that Zodiacal Releasing from the Lot of the Mother would give some insight into her past (during your lifetime) and future, at least in terms of her relationship with you.
Top   #367
Darth MI  Darth MI is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 20 Sep 2013
Location: A
Posts: 122
Darth MI 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
General observations:

There are two possible signifcators of the Mother; they are the Moon and Venus. Valens refers to both in this role, though he seems to give the Moon precedence. The Lot of the Mother is calculated as follows:

ASC + (position of) Moon - (position of) Venus : This is the calculation for a day birth

ASC + (position of) Venus - (position of) Moon : This is the calculation for a night birth

As the last term in a Lot calculation is the more important one, this seems to have led Joseph Crane to say that the Mother is signified by the Moon by night and Venus by day. I'm not sure that that is accurate for all considerations. Valens doesn't seem to make that distinction, except implicitly in the Lot calculation.

As you are a night birth, I think we can safely use the Moon as a general significator of your mother and the second calculation for the Lot of the Mother is univesally agreed.

Your Parents as such are the fourth House.

There is also a Lot of the Father, which uses:

ASC + Saturn - Sun by day and reverses this by night.

Lastly Valens does refer to the third House as the house of the mother and the ninth as the house of the father. However as these are the joys of the Moon and Sun respectively, I think he refers to them because of the pre-existing use of Sun and Moon for father and mother.

Your Chart

Your fourth house of Parents, contains Saturn and Mars. Saturn is out of sect but in his own domicile. Using Crane's signfication, Saturn would signify your father. Mars is your Ascendant ruler and is itself ruled by Saturn. So your father is the man in charge, at least in his own home and certainly while you are living there.

The Moon (signifying your mother) is placed in the tenth. The Moon opposes Saturn and Mars, though the opposition is closer to Mars than it is to Saturn. That seems to signify disagreements between the two of you and also disagreements between your parents on how you are treated and how you were brought up. The Moon is also trined by Mercury, the ruler of the Lot of Fortune - you probably found your mother easier to get on with or you found that you were 'luckier' at dealing with her. That's not to say that the opposition between Moon and Mars is removed by any means. It's a comparative. Of your two parents, your mother should be the easier for you to 'manage' Remember also that the Moon lies in the bounds of Mars. You have influence here and can dominate. Do you sometimes experience your mother as being 'distant' or there being a 'distance' between mother an father?

The Lot of the Mother lies in Taurus, in a partile square to Mars. Given that the opposition of Moon is closer to Mars and the square from the Lot to Mars is partile, your mother seems to give you significant problems. She's an obstacle in some sense, she frustrates you achieving what you want to achieve, though she's easier to manage or live with...that seems a contradiction but then life is full of them.

The Lot is ruled by Venus, which is in its exaltation in Pisces in the fifth. Venus is the other significator of the mother, and Venus is in the Place of Children. You've already told me tht your mother can sometimes treat you as a child, this placement seems to confirm that approach. She's in her element with you as a child, not an adult. It's going to be hard for her to adapt to you as such, and the exaltation simply suggests that she enjoys being seen on a pedastal as a mother - perhaps in a more modern sense, she enjoys being your mother and can end up smothering you when you need to spread your wings.

You can dominate though, if you wish to you can break free. Mars lies in the tenth sign from the Lot and this is seen as a dominating position in Hellenistic Astrology.

Your Lot of the Father, lies in Sagittarius. It is ruled by Jupiter. Firstly this shows that there's a definite benevolent side to him, though the condition of Jupiter suggests it's inhibited. Secondly the Lot lies in the terms of Saturn, The disciplinarian is still there. Interestingly, your ruler of the Lot of the Father opposes your ruler of the Lot of the Mother. This seems to reinforce the view that there's disagreements or opposition between your parents, yet there are clearly many harmonious connections as well. The Lot of the Mother lies in the bounds of Jupiter, ruler of your Lot of the Father. Venus, ruler of the Lot of the Mother is in Pisces, the sign of Jupiter and Jupiter is in the bounds of Venus.

So I can see apparent differences in their approach and manner towards you. Saturn suggests discipline as well as fear so I guess you had a fairly strict childhood as far as your father goes. but the Lots suggest that there's a harmony between mother and father as well. shown through the Lots. Better still the benefics rule the two lots.

The issue seems to be how you get the two of them to recognise your an adult and to release their benovolent sides in a more organised and controlled way.

Edited to add:

Some Hellenistic Astrologers use the Lot of Fortune as the origin of a second chart - and read off issues relating to how the world affects you and your health and wealth in regard to the usual house topics. In principle this could be done with the Lot of the Mother. So Gemini would be her house of substance, Leo would say something about her own parents (your grandparents and her own home), Scorpio would say something about her partner (your father) which is interesting because it's ruled by Mars, and I think you mentioned that he had a military background. I'm not sure enough of the validity of extending this to the other Lots but it's an interesting possibility, given the lack of a chart for her.

It's also possible that Zodiacal Releasing from the Lot of the Mother would give some insight into her past (during your lifetime) and future, at least in terms of her relationship with you.
EVERYTHING is SPOTON!


Yes conflcits with the mother but its a lot easier to deal with her. She for examples buy more stuff I want, takes me to the movies and restaurants more,etc/

The discipline and fear is complex. My father did put HARSH DISCIPLINE-but mostly when it came to studies and school. Almost everywhere else he either didn't seem to care or was so lax to the point of near irresponsibility. For example physically he never trained me to be an athlete as sayin the way he is currently training siblings to be physically strong enough to compete in spot. In other words his raising was contradictory in which as long as I did well in school and behaved he didn't care about anything else if I dressed sloppy in public,etc.

In fact its tot he point I remember him yellint me for not getting straight As when I was at my peak in school and even hitting me a few times when I had a D despite the fact my overall grave performance was average (or even EXCELLENT OVERALL-straight Bs except for the D in one subject or I got a few As but everything else is Bs).

The fear part-at the time I FEARED him ENOUGH not to contradict him for example in taking advanced classes out of sheer fear. But somehow I rebelled against some of his other oders such as misbehaving in school. Its as though I was cowardly to confront him directly but did stupid stuff that would get me punished. I mean I had the guts to hit students in school (though I trembled in fear later when he punished me after getting suspended) but yet I could never directly contradict him on issues such as classes I wanted to take (I did not ever want to take advanced English) or tell him I'd rather be running to compete for track and field or ask him to buy me extremely expensive stuff for hobbies he may not approve off such as skateboarding,etc.

In fact I am SHOCKED I struck mom a few times he wasn't around but he never punished me physically when he came back. Yet he'd hit me over a few mediocere grades or even above average (but not maximum) grades. It took until college for me to stand up and by then it as too late.

Does this confirm any mroe specifics in your reading?
Top   #368
Minderwiz's Avatar
Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
Student of Astrology
 
Join Date: 20 Apr 2002
Location: Wigan, UK
Posts: 7,888
Minderwiz 

Thanks for the feedback. The chart seems to show a confusion of attitudes between parents when it comes to your upbringing and what you have said above is basically that they had no real consistency between them and even your father is rather confusing with heavy discipline for some things but not for others.

One thing that your post does do is confirm the dominance of Mars in your chart. You have recounted hitting others at school and even hitting your mother. That fourth house Saturn Mars co-presence is really emphasised too.

I said that you had to use Mars to escape the 'clutches' of Saturn but you have to learn to do it constructively. Simply hitting out is not a solution. You need to use Mars in the sense of gaining self confidence and being bold enough to make your own decision and take responsibility for your own life. You also need to take over Saturn, in the sense of imposing your own structures, not as limits or confines but as a means to further your own aims.

Until you do that I think you will remain a prisoner of Saturn as fear or control and your Mars will indicate a willingness to hit out physically.
Top   #369
Minderwiz's Avatar
Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
Student of Astrology
 
Join Date: 20 Apr 2002
Location: Wigan, UK
Posts: 7,888
Minderwiz 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barkey Foreman View Post

So that means the MC, Dsc, and IC are more important than any planets?
No they are not more important than the planets but all Astrology since the Hellenistic period onward has put the planets in a framework. That framework is the chart or horoscope (strictly speaking the horoscope is only the first house or place).

The four angles (whether using whole sign houses or quadrant houses) are the most important places in the chart (other things being equal). They are the places where the planets are most active and topically they show the four key areas of life. Your body and spirit, your parents and background, your partner and your social position and career (taking them in the order of signs).

The angles help us to pick out those planets which are likely to signify the main influences on our lives. So in your chart, we could start with the angular planets, Saturn, Mars and Moon as having key roles.
In Hellenistic Astrology the Moon happens to be your Sect Light. Mars happens to be your Ascendant ruler and the Bound ruler of the Moon. so two of these planets take on additional significance. The third, Saturn, happens to be in his own sign of Aquarius. In this chart the Moon signifies your mother, Saturn signifies your father, and Mars signifies you. The three angular planets are right there, front stage in your life.
Top   #370
Elsewhere on the Tarot Forum
Popular Tarot Boards
· Using Tarot Cards
· Talking Tarot
· Tarot Spreads
· Tarot Decks
· Rider-Waite-Smith

Special Interest Boards
· Astrology
· Crystals & Herbs
· Divination
· Lenormand
· Spirituality

Popular Tarot Threads
· Pet Peeves
· Timing of cards
· Interesting tarot pairs
· The Moon as how someone feels
· The World as feelings

More Tarot Threads
· Cards for certain events
· Tarot meanings for health
· List of Tarot Questions
· Can Tarot be Dangerous?
· List of Tarot Myths



Elsewhere on Aeclectic Tarot
· Tarot Cards & Reviews
· Free Tarot Readings
· Tarot eBooks
· Tarot Card Meanings

Copyright © 1996 - 2021 Aeclectic Tarot. All rights reserved. Privacy Policy. Contact us. About us.