Mystic or Occult?

ravenest

kwaw said:
Yes it did happen with Theosophy - Blavatsky was more a theorist and many Theosophists were disillusioned - she only set up the 'promise' of a more practical branch (which equally turned out however to be mostly speculative) when the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor began to attract so many theosophists with the bait of a more practical, magical approach. She waged an ongoing war against the H. B. of L., but despite that many theosophists were members of both, with some going over to the H.B. of L., entirely.

Interesting ... the other info I had about this (from the HBL side ... sorta) stated things like you said ... but that was their view ( that members were coming to them because of what Theosophy lacked and Theosophy imported 'working ritual' / Magic to hold and attract members) , so I was seeing it as just one view as I had yet to hear the TS view on it. So it is interesting to hear your view on it as well.

kwaw said:
The H. B. of Luxor specifically targeted dissaffected Theosophists in their very first advertisement which appeared in 1884 in a copy of The Divine Pymander published by Fryar of Bath* :

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN
Students of the Occult Science, searchers after truth and Theosophists who may have been disappointed in their expectations of Sublime Wisdom being freely dispensed by HINDOO MATHATMAS, are cordially invited to send in their names to the Editor of this Work, when if found suitable, can be admitted, after a short probationary term, as members of an Occult Brotherhood, who do not boast of their knowledge or attainments, but teach freely and without reserve all they find worthy to receive.
N.B. All communications should be addressed ‘Theon’ c/o of Robt. H. Fryar, Bath.

Thats the stuff! I seem to remember a story about someone putting up bogus notices on the TS noticeboard ?

This reminds me of a 'Pagan Alliance' I was invited to attend; some groups prepared by making little stalls and printing flyers to attract members to their group ... then the 'mammalian politics' increased ... I ended up not going.

Of course, there can be great benefits as well ... and there are all different sorts of groups, including different sorts of groups or cells within the same traditions.

kwaw said:
Kwaw
* Robert H. Fryar of Bath was a publisher of occult/esoteric texts. He published several of Westcotte's books and essays, including his 'Isaic Tablet of Bembo', which he described as the 'perfect tarot', and included the Gra attributions to the tarot which were later used by fellow theosophists in America (and became the attributions for some Spanish decks)

Thanks I will have to check that out ( the 'Isaic Tablet of Bembo' ) ... I have Weiser 1995 HBL book , but haven't read it fully.

ravenest

Karrma said:
Coincidence? The physical address of the publisher of Patrick Harper's book is about 20 minutes from my house.

Karrma said:
So if a definition of occult is "hidden" then this does change quite a bit from culture to culture, and personally, on the way each person's mind works. And has a big overtone of negative, as in " My cultures belief in god(s)(ess) etc. needs faith to believe, but would not be occult, because that is a bad word."

'Hidden' is a very simple base interpretation ... more like an astronomical one. But you are right about the way the meaning 'in extension' can transition through cultures. There are also other twists; political , the demonisation of another deities ( forcing the new demons 'underground', from both sides, making them 'occult'), the inverse of this where a new religion will adopt and transform the local old beliefs and subsume them ; then you have a hidden or 'mystical' tradition within that religion, etc.

These things seem to NEED to be acted out ... in variation of theme and inversion of theme (detecting these themes and relationships within such above movements , in various cultures and 'Daemonic ' or 'other-world' experiences { and locations } seems to be a speciality of Harpur's. )

Karrma said:
So if you would take the "good or bad" judgment out of occult, faith based and occult would be just about the same.

It can. But I'd prefer to take the faith based out. That can result in a system closer to a science ... where one studies it more as cause and effect ... a type of 'scientific illuminism' or more akin to an Hermetic approach, based on magical 'technology' eg.

http://hermetic.com/crowley/equinox/i/ii/eqi02016.html

Karrma said:
So in my mind, through this description, God is occult and Kether is occult as well as some of the things I personally experience. And then what I perceive as "good, gray or bad" in organized religions is very similar to what I perceive as "good, gray or bad" in other occult areas.

And to be a bit of a devil's advocate, then "Theosists" or "Golden Dawn" or whatever group, will have a similar effect on culture as an organized religious group.

Yes but in a different way ... sometimes very subtle ... like a homoeopathic dose (in the case of some occult movements) effective or not , or in a large way (like the influence of Hermetics on Islam and later European culture and perhaps later resultant concepts and movements - some say the Enlightenment, French Revolution and The founding of the U.S.A.

Oh .... and and effect on Tarot

Karrma said:
The "Mystic" pathway then to me, is more of the individual experience with the occult, rather than the community, group, magical ritual, learn from a teacher, etc pathway. It seems more of a "Holy Guardian Angel" pathway if you study Thoth, for example.

Yeah , even in an Orders monastery there are individual monk's cells and retreats. No matter what one is 'in' its ultimately up to the individual and their own 'mystical process' what an order or system of initiation does is show how that is to be enacted in an outer form with life, individually and socially , hopefully in context with time and location, culture, etc.

What you say about studying Thoth (beyond 'divination') is one way ... but there is also the comments all through the Book of Thoth relating to the OTO ... which states it is, as well as an Order, a social experiment ... which most 'fraternities' seem to be.

Karrma said:
Pleas tear my faulty assumptions apart, so I can learn more.

No.

I might add some notes for you book though .

ravenest

ravenest said:
Thanks I will have to check that out ( the 'Isaic Tablet of Bembo' ) ... I have Weiser 1995 HBL book , but haven't read it fully.

Oh ... it's the The Bembine Tablet ... right.

Zephyros

Allah

I tried to find Him on the Christian cross, but He was not there; I went to the Temple of the Hindus and to the old pagodas, but I could not find a trace of Him anywhere.

I searched on the mountains and in the valleys but neither in the heights nor in the depths was I able to find Him. I went to the Ka'bah in Mecca, but He was not there either.

I questioned the scholars and philosophers but He was beyond their understanding.

I then looked into my heart and it was there where He dwelled that I saw Him; He was nowhere else to be found.

The Rose

What Allah said to the Rose

And caused it to laugh in full blown beauty,

He said to my heart

And made it a hundred times more beautiful.

In But Not In

It is said that after Muhammad and the prophets

revelation does not descend upon anyone else.

Why not? In fact it does, but then it is not called 'revelation.'

It is what the Prophet referred to when he said, 'The believer sees with the Light of Allah.'

When the believer looks with Allah's Light,

he sees all things: the first and the last, the present and the absent.

For how can anything be hidden from Allah's Light?

And if something is hidden, then it is not the Light of Allah.

Therefore the meaning of revelation exists, even if it is not called revelation.

Jalaluddin Rumi

Karrma

It is what the Prophet referred to when he said, 'The believer sees with the Light of Allah.'

When the believer looks with Allah's Light,

he sees all things: the first and the last, the present and the absent.

For how can anything be hidden from Allah's Light?

And if something is hidden, then it is not the Light of Allah.

Since the full quote is up higher, I did not post the author, and is slightly out of context. It is also meant to be poetic, but.....

Does that mean: if it is hidden, then one did not look with the Light of Allah?

I also think that the circle is a very wonderful cycle, except in reasoning and definitions.

Allah

I tried to find Him on the Christian cross, but He was not there; I went to the Temple of the Hindus and to the old pagodas, but I could not find a trace of Him anywhere.

I searched on the mountains and in the valleys but neither in the heights nor in the depths was I able to find Him. I went to the Ka'bah in Mecca, but He was not there either.

I questioned the scholars and philosophers but He was beyond their understanding.

I then looked into my heart and it was there where He dwelled that I saw Him; He was nowhere else to be found.

But when you find Her in your heart, then you can recognize God everywhere.

ravenest

" What can be named can be known, what can not be named must be lived, believed. I speak of the creator and the creation, the ordinary life lived extraordinarily. I work for the sake of working. The joy of creating is the joy of forgetting everything else. I lean into life. My tongue is fire; my breath is wind. The spirit spits from my mouth. I speak of a chain of events where making leads to making, action to action, love to love, where the beginning began so long ago we find ourselves always in the midst of it.

There is no rest. The act is now. In your lives you will make children, make peace, make errors, you will make trouble, you will dance under the sun and moon. As long as you live you will create life. You will rise and fall many times. It is like the making of a good loaf of bread. You will be nourished. "

“Not a perfect soul, I am perfecting. Not a human being, I am a human becoming.”

― Normandi Ellis, Awakening Osiris: The Egyptian Book of the Dead (transliteration)

Karrma

It can. But I'd prefer to take the faith based out. That can result in a system closer to a science ... where one studies it more as cause and effect ... a type of 'scientific illuminism' or more akin to an Hermetic approach, based on magical 'technology' eg.

Good, this helps me understand one of the other words I need to learn. So Hermetic is more of a "system" approach.

I am a scientist, I have a scientific mind, had it since I was born. The most important thing in this process, is not to start on faulty assumptions.....garbage in, garbage out. And I hope I know what science can and cannot do.....one of the worst assumptions is that science can explain everything, and another is continuing to assume prior "facts" (assumptions based on other assumptions based on facts) don't change. The past of science can change when something new is learned, which is different than, say my own experiential past.

To me Faith Based, is just that, there is no scientific process to explain it, and to try to do so in a scientific format is pseudoscience. One always has to start with an assumption that can never be proven, and all that is proven scientifically on top of that, can be a house of cards. Not that this process is wrong, you just need to be aware that it all is based on one thing that is on faith alone.

What is in my heart is faith alone.
You can never prove a negative, you have to believe a negative on faith alone.
Things I have experienced but can never prove to others, I take on faith alone.
Anything I do to convince others of their importance, seem to be best expressed by art, myth, religion, poetry, fiction, symbolism.
With tarot, I am starting to understand the symbolisms, the myths, the religions of this world.
I do include faith based as my definition of hidden, in the way I want to understand it. And now I understand more of what and how I am to learn on this path that Tarot is taking me. Thank you for this insight.

Zephyros

Karrma said:
Since the full quote is up higher, I did not post the author, and is slightly out of context. It is also meant to be poetic, but.....

Does that mean: if it is hidden, then one did not look with the Light of Allah?

In a way, yes, since it is only the believer who sees with the Light, the utter truth of unity with Allah. Now, part of being mortal is the sense of self, of separation. Some mystics achieve the annihilation of separation through occult means and some do it differently. Christianity called this state having the "Beatific Vision," and it is a requirement for canonization. The A∴A∴ has the grade of Ipsissimus. I don't believe we can really understand these really extreme states, whether they involve merely ever-intensifying states of meditation or if something else is really going on, or even crazy people suffering from a lack of oxygen, but a recurring theme seems to be complete awareness and loss of separation between oneself and the rest of the universe. I don't actually know what that means since I'm not there.

Karrma said:
But when you find Her in your heart, then you can recognize God everywhere.

Yes, in the beauty of the Rose you see the beauty of yourself and realize it is exactly the same beauty, since it exists.

ravenest

Karrma said:
Good, this helps me understand one of the other words I need to learn. So Hermetic is more of a "system" approach.

I am a scientist, I have a scientific mind, had it since I was born. The most important thing in this process, is not to start on faulty assumptions.....garbage in, garbage out. And I hope I know what science can and cannot do.....one of the worst assumptions is that science can explain everything, and another is continuing to assume prior "facts" (assumptions based on other assumptions based on facts) don't change.

It can supply a 'method' ; 'the method of science, the aim of religion'.

" . . . I was anxious to prove that spiritual progress did not depend on religious or moral codes, but was like any other science. Magick would yield its secrets to the infidel and the libertine, just as one does not have to be a churchwarden in order to discover a new kind of orchid. There are, of course, certain virtues necessary to the Magician; but they are of the same order as those which make a successful chemist."

http://www.ararita.org/content/what-does-method-science-aim-religion-mean

ravenest

closrapexa said:
Yes, in the beauty of the Rose you see the beauty of yourself and realize it is exactly the same beauty, since it exists.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Z0fSrgHw6.../A3tsyWH9AKA/s1600/cross+tattoo+with+rose.jpg

Mystic or Occult?

ravenest

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Zephyros

Karrma

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Karrma

Zephyros

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