Zephyros
"Stat rosa pristina nomine, nomina nuda tenemus"
There is a beauty that lasts even when the rose is dust.
Mystic or Occult?
"Stat rosa pristina nomine, nomina nuda tenemus"
There is a beauty that lasts even when the rose is dust.
ravenest
The Great Work
Rosa Mundi
The Alchemical Mother and Father.
http://images.tvrage.com/screencaps/28/5521/170864.jpg
Rosa Mundi
The Alchemical Mother and Father.
http://images.tvrage.com/screencaps/28/5521/170864.jpg
Karrma
To be a successful chemist (technician) is very different from being a successful
scientist (knowing what questions to ask, interpreting the results, making a conclusion, then re-evaluating all that went prior, to see if there is changes). One area I am fascinated about is where alchemy diverted from chemistry. They both started with Hermes Trigeminus, it sounds like. But much of the difference is on what assumptions were kept and what were discarded.
I had been thinking some of it was ego related....say when watching a seed grow into a plant, the scientist would realize the plant is doing something that us humans could never do, and just asking more and more questions focusing on the plant, and another person saying, if the plant can do this, so can I, so focusing on self rather than the plant.
(I am so xxxxmad at the technology here, lost half my post when trying to post it, as it made me sign in again, and I must have copied only half of the post. Don't have time to restate it now, but will try to remember it later. Lunch is over,back to work)
ravenest
I think Crowley was trying to point out that Spiritual progress can be 'like any other science' ... 'magician's virtues' can be the same as a chemist (he was a chemist himself and did some successful operations like synthesising the psychoactive component in the 'magic mushrooms' he bought back from Mexico). - Doing a chemical experiment with the scientific method should be the way one approaches magick; using the process of the scientist with the skill of a technician.
Hermes Trismegistus ? ... he may have been a myth or a syncretic personality. The diversion was over a period of time ... many target Robert Boyle as a significant cross over point ( some nuts he wanted to crack open were; extending life and regenerating youth, drugs to expand imagination, " Pleasing Dreams and physical Exercises exemplify'd by the Egyptian Electuary and by the Fungus mentioned by the French Author", {sounds like Crowley here } transmutation of species in minerals, animals, and vegetables and the transmutation of metals ).
It is easier to examine now what the differences are. Its a very blurred line at times ... some people being both 'scientists' and hermetic occultists at the same time e.g. not many know of the extensive research and practice Isaac Newton did on the subject ( http://books.google.com.au/books?id=wwc4AAAAIAAJ )
I see it (nowadays) in reverse ... many 'scientists' and the method comes from 'ego' and is centred in ego. It examines and looks at one thing in great detail and pulls it apart and examines it. A dam is built to supply water or a power station produces it by nuclear power with seemingly little regard to its OTHER effects ... IMO it's a narrow view.
Hermetics has a holistic view point and sees the interrelationships between various things; their effects on each other and what forces blend them or help them keep their boundaries.
A human may never photosynthesis but there are many things a plant does that we do do and can do. By examining the processes in interconnected nature the hermeticist can discern how and if they are transferable, or use them to help comprehend unknow processes in related things. Even things as visually and superficially obvious (even 'childish' perhaps) as the 'Doctrine of Signatures' has bought up some useful medicines that are still used today with success .
Its interesting that the further science looks IN TO matter the more they are discovering how everything is interconnected and in a way not (previously) scientifically obvious - hence things like quantum theory, they come up with models and explanations that are becoming more and more magical and describe processes already outlined in many 'occult' subjects ( like Kabbalah and 'Daeomnic Reality' { which outlines 'otherworld' processes and experiences people have had ... in all times and cultures ... quiet exactly with ideas being bought forward by sub-atomic research and astronomy - perhaps we are moving towards a 'unified field' of understanding in both subjects ? } ) .
Isnt THAT a bummer ... that plagued me for a while .... Internet explorer and this site are NOT compatible IMO - google chrome works MUCH better ... however I can still loose text in the posting box when backspacing one letter
while most of the time that works ... and just removes the letter. Sometimes it pays to copy and paste and write in a private doc and copy and paste back here .... what a hassle !Karrma
In a way I am glad that I lost part of my last post, as I was thinking about it much more last night and this morning.
I was wondering what you thought Crowleys first assumption was. (For example, in math, the first assumption is the definition that the symbol 1 equals one unit of anything. A brilliant new innovation later was the 0 or zero as placeholder for no units, nothing. When I see the number 10, I assume that it is in base 10, unless stated otherwise, but with computers could easily be a 2 in base 2.)
Right now, I think that one of Crowleys first assumptions is the definitions of spirit. What does he mean by spirit compared to anyone else? My definition of spirit is faith based, is very different from another that may believe we are all chemical process. If what I believe is spirit, is different than his, I will not be able to use his results, but possibly the processes (technical aspects).
Then, what is meant by spiritual progress? Do I look at the final results of Crowley's life, to see if his spiritual progression is where I want my spiritual progression to go? Is it where he wanted it to go? If not, do I want to take the time to analyze each step to find out where he may have made a mistake?
******Another lightbulb. (I love mornings, have been getting some of my important new thought right when i wake up, like it was from a dream) I have just realized one of the "Devil" meanings that has been coming up several times in my readings. And that is to get trapped into the scientific process, which is my comfort zone. I could have so much fun, and be so trapped into the details and minutiae of analyzing Thoth, Waite, Underhill, etc, finding the original source to read, that I will not progress where I need to, in the spiritual realm of the heart and soul.
So right now, I am in the infancy: in tarot, am the trying to find which journey or path to take for spiritual progression.
Yes, but as I was trying to write before, if one starts with the wrong assumptions, it can be like a house of cards, and pun not intended prior, but is now.......
I look at where Crowley ended up, and I believe that I will not take his magical science pathway, thank you. I will however, take his Art card rather than Temperance, that just resonates with me spiritually and intuitively. My bad, I did forget that this may or may not have been real, was trying to quickly state the earliest history of the scientific process, inductive, deductive, empiric reasonings etc.
as I said before, science does not answer everything, need to look at assumptions, and that the knowledge changes when the assumptions are found to be bad or good.
respectfully disagree....I think it has another viewpoint but in itself it is not whole. If that is what you mean by holistic, if you meany holey or holy those are two more questions.
Yes, I love this.......but getting back to the devil card coming up, for me, the temptation to study this is overwhelming, but in my heart not what I am supposed to learn with tarot right now.
Another light bulb moment for me, is how I recognize what resonates with my intuitive right brain, which is there, but underutilized and underfed. It comes from my musical background. My mom was a violinist, and I learned from a young age to play the violin, and piano, would go to her concerts and fall asleep on my dad's lap, waking up sometimes when he was carrying me back to bed. As an adult, I can only easily tap into my right brain with playing music, or some sports. When something feels right, I have always called it resonating, and now I realize it is my right brain, as if a musical instrument, hearing if something is on pitch or flat.
ravenest
There is a lot in there to answer or discuss
I started - then lost text by correcting a missed capitol with backspace
I have copied the surviving text into a private document and will finish it later and get back to you.
I started - then lost text by correcting a missed capitol with backspace
I have copied the surviving text into a private document and will finish it later and get back to you.
ravenest
There is so much referring to Crowley here I'd prefer to leave him out of the equation. But he had some interesting points and in places structured things the right way and in the right order .... I would rather study A system than HIS system .... the issue is he outlines a lot of stuff quiet good and a lot of the time he is re-writing in a clearer or a different and novel view point … so, at times it seems, when quoting or referring to him a lot one seems an advocate of some sort of Crowley system. As far as really getting into it, it relies on the self of course, and a lot of what Crowley wrote was also his ‘self-system’ … so one needs to be able to make a distinction and not follow or try to emulate him … or IMO as a magician, no one else either. Crowley wrote distinctly on the dangers of this … trying to emulate anyone, including himself. Emulation, IMO seems the other side … to have a guru or prophet … to follow someone else’s system instead of one’s own that may be developed, from a system that is outlined. However, some points may correlate.
The system of number ( or cosmology or manifestation) starts with zero or void , even before '1' there are 3 stages of 'nothingness' in kabbalah ... then (here's the big ? ) '1' 'evolves', comes into existence and so on, from 0 .
A ‘point of view’ or ‘point’ of origin a viewpoint can start anywhere; 0, 1 - unity or start at 2 a duality or 3 a Trinitarian concept and so on. Even in Kabbalah lineal manifestation as shown in ‘The Path of the Lightening Flash’ is just a metaphor to explain ideas in just one way of looking at it. Choose your weapon and draw it
... my personal BELIEF is that we are all a dream of a giant sleeping rainbow serpent. But that’s belief and hence something entirely different. In magical number theory a similar ‘mystery/ and curious dynamics unfold between 3 and 4 … how 3 manifests into 4 , is a lower phase of how 0 manifests 1. For another hermetic approach see ‘The Tetractys’ .
IMO Crowley is non-committal … he presents various ideas on the subject. The basic hermetic idea (that has varied over time and cycles , as Crowley’s and one’s own can) is based on the Platonic Forms idea … much of Hermeticism is based on Neo-Platonism.
Again ... I would look to a more general concept. Spirit means different things at different times ... even for Crowley. As far as a statement of BELIEF goes … he wrote this as the beginning of the Creed of the Gnostic church ; “I believe in one secret and ineffable LORD; and in one Star in the Company of Stars of whose fire we are created, and to which we shall return; and in one Father of Life, Mystery of Mystery, in His name CHAOS, the sole vice-regent of the Sun upon the Earth; and in one Air the nourisher of all that breathes.”
I suppose the other specifically Crowley idea is in his system of neo-Egyptian / Thelemic concepts of deity ‘starting’ with Nuit (but it is also ‘non-linear’ in manifestation with Hadit ‘existing at the same time’ ; sometimes Nuit seems a metaphor for the ‘time / space ‘ continuum or void and Hadit the potential ‘point-event’.
Another thing about spirit is it was favoured as a replacement when they removed ‘soul’ from the equation; the triple personal idea of Body, Spirit, Soul was condensed into a duality of Body / Spirit , spirit became a type of ghostlike asexual vague spiritual entity and soul retreated , or was denied and forced underground , along with all the psychological associations that went with it … until, in the ‘material world’ Jung revived it somewhat. Many other traditions from the Shamanic, to the Hermetic ( and Crowley makes a distinction in Neo-Egyptian terns; Khu / Khabs ) outline and define the difference between spirit and soul (and ‘types of’ soul)
To get back to the idea of general ‘ Hermetic’ or ‘Gnostic’ ‘ Spirit’ , one way of looking at it is CHAOS [ in this sense ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony) ] , from an Alchemic (and Hermetic ) perspective 'Mercurius' is 'spirit'; “ I call it Chaos because it is a microcosm of the original Chaos that obtained before Heaven was divided from the Earth … Albertus Magnus called it Mercurius … (for Basil Valentine ) the prima material is an ‘earth’ inhabited by a spirit which is nourished by the stars and which nourishes in turn all the living things it shelters in its womb … it is the ‘treasure hard to obtain’ and, more particularly, the secret fire that must be released from our Chaos and made visible.” [ Harpur, ‘Mercurius’. P. 14 ).
For me, spiritual progress is developing, nourishing, and coming to greater understanding of the nature of the soul and spirit, understanding the time and location factors in one’s OWN incarnation and one’s particular purpose, ‘telos’ or ‘True Will’.
I don’t have a need for Crowley to be that significant. What he did with the information was his trip. That’s why I advocate Hermetics as a subject for a ‘teacher’ and its vast tradition and not the workings of particular individuals, although each can make a contribution.
Perhaps here you are getting back to the original topic of where Magic (or widely ‘occult’) and Mystic differ? Both are important and need to be balanced … sometimes when looking at one issue, in one point of time … or in cycles; that is, I spend periods in either with one or the other as a general view … this also changes throughout life for many as well.
Obviously I recommend the magical path … gnostic (in one needs to seek the self-mystical experience one’s self and not exclusively by the agency of Prophet, Priest or King.
I might go a bit further here to demonstrate ; As a magician I explored certain Hare Krishna practices which ended up being most beneficial. I was never a Hare Krishna, but I did practices AS a devotee of Krishna. To become a Krishna fully one has to give great credence to belief and faith ( which can be tools to a magician but really no more) prophets and gurus, emulation, and , in magical terms, glamour and fixation … however, one can never argue that point with Hare Krishna. To do the practice fully from the religious point of view it as THE technology, from a magical point of view A technology existing in particular clothing of metaphor and analogy. One cant do the practice fully without commitment, but too much commitment one loses the magical perspective … this goes for all practices of devotion or Bhakti … especially volatile as magical invocation of a god and Bhakti Yoga are based on that part of the psyche that utilises love, a volatile ingredient.
Yes, but as I was trying to write before, if one starts with the wrong assumptions, it can be like a house of cards, and pun not intended prior, but is now.......
Well, I don’t advocate anyone to take HIS magical science pathway … it isn’t his, however I find many of his explanations about that tradition (which has been around a long time) to be lucid … he earned quiet a good reputation for that. Taking ‘his’ Art card is the same thing … IMO he took the inner traditional alchemical and hermetic idea he and many others saw in the more (dare I say it ) Christian mystical idea of Temperance. Actually the Artifying of temperance is more ‘Crowley’ than the idea of magic being examined as a science.
Since I am not actually ‘on about’ Crowley, but a method of Hermetics I think it is better, when examining outcomes, not to look at his personal life but the influence Hermetics has had on history and cultures … which I roughly outlined before, I think.
It was part of Hermetics, perhaps Aristotle injected a large chunk in … then later philosophers up to the time of the above mentioned Robert Boyle where it seemed to split more into two branches … or perhaps the ‘more scientific’ side went on to a tangent and got a large focus, it could be a need for balance surfacing and lead to a greater future synthesis?
Agreed, nor does the hermetic outlook, which may be why human consciousness needed to focus on the scientific approach.
I mean holistic as in the basic premise of Hermetics ; things effecting each other that may seem unable to from a scientific perspective ; through an unperceived medium, a quantum concept ( or quantum satis; "add as much of this ingredient as is needed to achieve the desired result."
) : as above so below, the theory of correspondences (e.g. why should the priestess card relate to the Moon and have reflective symbology and blue on it ?) , etc. I was quickly trying to state something then 
Of Course Hermetics consist of other ‘basic principles’ ; http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/kyb/kyb04.htm
What is your other viewpoint ?
I would say it is important to follow you heart … but what directs the heart and HOW does that process work and is its communication pure and direct , is one a pure channel for the direct speaking heart or is being relayed through other functions? IMO psychological maps, that things like natal astrology can be projected onto, are very useful for this. At the same time one could spend a life of studying the maps and intellectualising it all without leaping in somewhere … anywhere ! ? … That seems to be heart thing … and if a path isn’t an expression of your heart then it soon becomes empty.
I think it is important to pay attention when something ‘irks one’ or seems off key … but knowing why might avoid throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
In a way Mercurius and a ‘particular function of the intelligence’ (i.e. not the normal function) is the mediator or ‘third eye’ between both hemispheres of the brain : heaven and hell : conscious and unconscious : the Solar Ego ‘Heart’ and ‘ Lunar ‘ world of instincts, passions and psychological drives. In me it is reflected in my natal chart with strong Neptune / Mercury aspects. If I didn’t have that Neptune I would be missing so much.
Karrma
I can see I am flying on a tangent from mystic/occult, and now trying to learn about hermetics.
Hermetic was defined earlier as a scientific approach to study medicine. As a scientific approach, it will be biased, all science is biased, you just need to know what, and how to minimize it. What is known or learned is based on the earlier assumptions, and is based on what is chosen to be studied.
As far as the word holistic, this is a very overused and misused term in my opinion, at least in the USA. It usually means "ignore all science" in the medical field, (Please forgive me, I am in a rant right now) I am disgusted with the marketing that promotes chemically altered powders as "natural" in the USA just because they are not FDA(government) regulated, just as I am disgusted with the medical profession of the arrogance of forgetting that almost all medications came from plant or animal sources originally. The bias that only marketable, patentable medications are being studied, and the "evidence based medicine" promoting only medications that have a patent, is horrible and frustrating.
If something is truly holistic, then it needs to be looked at from at least four dimensions, or more. Spiritual growth, for example, needs the first dimension or point of conception, essence, then several linear dimensions of science, of heart, emotion, then put together as a three dimensional, complex organism, then grows through time, stages, maybe lifetimes. Science, even if hermetic science, is linear, not spacial.
What I see of hermetics that is useful is practice... practice, practice, which is vital in any area we want to excel at.
Total change...have you read the book "Zen of Motorcycle Maintenance" which to me is a very holistic picture about how similar genius is in all the different areas of thought.
And another.....Mercury and Neptune? How does astrology work upside down in the southern hemisphere, with the tropical versus sidereal...too confusing for me, especially as my chart is very different depending on if I use Placidus or equal houses.
Hermetic was defined earlier as a scientific approach to study medicine. As a scientific approach, it will be biased, all science is biased, you just need to know what, and how to minimize it. What is known or learned is based on the earlier assumptions, and is based on what is chosen to be studied.
As far as the word holistic, this is a very overused and misused term in my opinion, at least in the USA. It usually means "ignore all science" in the medical field, (Please forgive me, I am in a rant right now) I am disgusted with the marketing that promotes chemically altered powders as "natural" in the USA just because they are not FDA(government) regulated, just as I am disgusted with the medical profession of the arrogance of forgetting that almost all medications came from plant or animal sources originally. The bias that only marketable, patentable medications are being studied, and the "evidence based medicine" promoting only medications that have a patent, is horrible and frustrating.
If something is truly holistic, then it needs to be looked at from at least four dimensions, or more. Spiritual growth, for example, needs the first dimension or point of conception, essence, then several linear dimensions of science, of heart, emotion, then put together as a three dimensional, complex organism, then grows through time, stages, maybe lifetimes. Science, even if hermetic science, is linear, not spacial.
What I see of hermetics that is useful is practice... practice, practice, which is vital in any area we want to excel at.
Total change...have you read the book "Zen of Motorcycle Maintenance" which to me is a very holistic picture about how similar genius is in all the different areas of thought.
And another.....Mercury and Neptune? How does astrology work upside down
in the southern hemisphere, with the tropical versus sidereal...too confusing for me, especially as my chart is very different depending on if I use Placidus or equal houses.ravenest
How can I stay on topic in a conversation like this Chat, , Get It Off Your Chest , News, Views and Opinions, Astrology, What Book Are You Reading ... with semantics meta- discussion and off topic ... all in a few lines .... I dont know where to go.
Perhaps we should PM ?
Unless, no one minds, and in this case we can go all over the place into meta-discussion and OT ?
