What is belief?

Zephyros

I have not seen the question specifically addressed here, and the dictionary definition is less interesting than what people have to say about it. Many people believe many things, many of which can easily be proven or disproven definitively by science. There are all different kinds of people who believe in many things such as in a deity, but do not believe in other things, like the Loch Ness Monster.

Some things are established hoaxes, like the Bermuda Triangle. Not only has it been shown to be a concoction of popular writers, but the numbers themselves show that there are not more crashes or sinkings in that area than in other comparable places (it is one of the most traversed areas on the globe). The Bermuda Triangle does not exist. Yet, there are those who almost automatically believe, without further exploration. Some questions cannot be answered, like the existence of god(s) so belief in this case is understandable. But what is the difference between something that can be proven, and something that cannot be? Now, there may or may not be a monster in Loch Ness, but why the need to believe? Why is that any different from having a theory, such as having roaches in your basement, checking it out and finding nothing? Do you have to believe in the roaches? Will you continue to believe you have them, even after overwhelming evidence you don't? Isn't that delusional? What is the line between belief and delusion, if there is one?

There might also be mentioned that there are also non-spiritual beliefs that don't have a leg to stand on. People still believe that Earth is the center of the universe, should that belief be respected, even though it flies in the face of objective truth? What about the belief that vaccines cause autism, even though the preponderance of medical studies conclude it is wrong and misguided? Climate change denial relies only on belief, even though it is accepted as fact by the scientific community, should it be respected like any other belief?
 

Annabelle

To me, "delusion" involves something more than belief -- it involves seeing or hearing something that is not present, not real, not seen or heard by others.

Perhaps I have come to see "delusion" in that way because I have sometimes experienced delusions -- or, perhaps my doctors would call it hallucinations. Perhaps there's a fine point of difference between delusion and hallucination that I'm mixing up.

Belief . . . well, it certainly isn't always logical. And sometimes, in my opinion, belief crosses the line into willful ignorance or even willful destructiveness -- choosing to act on the belief that one race or ethnicity is evil or or dangerous and must be destroyed, for instance.

Sometimes, though, I can see how people can be persuaded into believing odd theories -- such as the persistent belief that humans have never landed on the moon, despite there being overwhelming evidence to prove it. Because so few people were actually there, live, in the moment, it's not all that hard for modern-day conspiracy theorists to invent an argument that a moon landing couldn't have happened. Some people seem to enjoy believing that the government is lying to them -- it's been my observation that some people feel an increased sense of self-importance when they build up a system of belief that others are out to get them or harm them.
 

Annabelle

There might also be mentioned that there are also non-spiritual beliefs that don't have a leg to stand on. People still believe that Earth is the center of the universe, should that belief be respected, even though it flies in the face of objective truth? What about the belief that vaccines cause autism, even though the preponderance of medical studies conclude it is wrong and misguided? Climate change denial relies only on belief, even though it is accepted as fact by the scientific community, should it be respected like any other belief?

If there is a preponderance of objective evidence that [x] is true, and people believe that [y] is true instead, then honestly NO -- I don't respect those beliefs. I don't get in people's faces about it; I have co-workers, for instance, who are climate change deniers. They say their piece, and I say mine, and we don't argue over it, because we'd rather get along well as a team. But do I respect their belief that climate change isn't real? Nope.
 

Chiska

Belief is a funny thing. We have spiritual beliefs on one hand, then socio-economic beliefs on the other. Really, beliefs exist in many contexts.

I think that it can be easy for people to mix up faith and belief. These are intertwined, I think, in that faith provides an internal support to a belief to a point where it becomes fact for the believer. For example, I have FAITH that there is a god, therefore it supports my BELIEF in god. Kind of a circular argument though, if you ask me! But that is one I tend to leave alone.

To believe in something means that one has so much faith in the validity and reliability of *something* that it becomes fact, even without supporting evidence.

Of course, faith becomes another question. What is faith? Where does it come from? Which came first? Belief or faith??

This promises to be an interesting discussion. I BELIEVE that it can remain lively and illuminating without losing civility. In this case, I believe/hope that something will happen without having concrete proof that it will.
 

Barleywine

For me, belief implies a reasonable degree of confidence in the persistence of a particular unit of reality. I believe that the sun will rise tomorrow (at least for the foreseable future :)) Faith has no such readily apparent underpinning, which is why it is characterized as a "leap." When people tell me they are "persons of faith" and ask if I'm one too, I say "Oh no, I'm a person of certainty." Meaning that I see some kind of organizing principle in the universe that takes it out of the realm of absolute chaos, but I have no use for the assumption of an anthropomorphic "God." Accepting it as spiritual in nature and not simply mechanistic demands that "leap," but the chasm isn't so wide as some I might mention and the need for an eschatological "safety net" is less pressing.

Regarding conspiracy theories, I believe that Monsanto and Big Ag, abetted by the FDA and USDA, are transparently intent on dominating the world's food supply through genetic engineering, and that Big Pharma, also abetted by the FDA as well as the AMA, doesn't unequivocally want to see an outright cure for cancer any time soon. Sickness (and fear of sickness) translates into huge profits, after all. You don't need to be a gullible gaper to appreciate the underlying germ of truth in these statements. But then, I'm cynical almost to the point of fatalism about the human condition, and strongly suspect (although I have no basis to believe - yet) that evolution of the intellect as a progressively more capable survival tool has slowed to a crawl and may even "go negative" into a state of devolution. There are numerous environmental and sociological factors pushing it that way
 

ravenest

I have not seen the question specifically addressed here, and the dictionary definition is less interesting than what people have to say about it. Many people believe many things, many of which can easily be proven or disproven definitively by science. There are all different kinds of people who believe in many things such as in a deity, but do not believe in other things, like the Loch Ness Monster.

Back in the Golden post-Whitlam Years I was fortunate enough to be able to attend courses at Sydney University – for free - as a mature age student . I took non-graduate courses in Comparative religion, Divinity and Cultural Anthropology. The Divinity course of lectures started off with nearly 40 students. I found the course very interesting but some others didn’t. Some began to question (fair enough), argue ( ok, I guess, but a little disruptive) and get angry (interesting!) to the point where they stormed out of the lecture never to return. On a few agitated occasions these people directly challenged the lecturer as they felt what he was teaching did not conform to their particular outlook. The lecturer had to remind them that he WAS the Senior Lecturer of Divinity and Sydney University and what he was teaching WAS valid and the lecturer further explained to the agitated, would be, student that their own religious teachers had insisted they do the course at Sydney University before their training as a Pastor or whatever equivalent could take place and if they walked out they would not be able to continue that training. But it didn’t stop them from walking out. More and more left as the series of lectures went on. One day I commented how small the class had got, the Lecturer said, “Oh, you noticed that. That normally happens.” The last lecture in the course was attended by myself and 3 other students.

Comparative Religion and Divinity address issues other than specific religions, they also look at concepts such as belief, faith and cultural aspects.

Firstly, some definitions; What is religion?

Analysing the word itself; Religion , respect for what is sacred, reverence for the gods, obligation, the bond between man and the Gods is derived from the Latin religiō, the ultimate origins of which are obscure. One possibility is derivation from le-ligare, "read", i.e. re (again) + lego in the sense of "choose", "go over again" or "consider carefully". Modern scholars such as Joseph Campbell favor the derivation from ligare "bind, connect", or … "to reconnect," which was made prominent by St. Augustine.

According to Max Müller, the root of the English word "religion", the Latin religio, was originally used to mean only "reverence for God or the gods, careful pondering of divine things, Müller characterized many other cultures around the world, including Egypt, Persia, and India, as having a similar power structure at this point in history.
What is called ancient religion today, they would have only called "law".

Many languages have words that can be translated as "religion", but they may use them in a very different way, and some have no word for religion at all. For example, the Sanskrit word dharma, sometimes translated as "religion", also means law.

I dont think there is a precise equivalent of "religion" in Hebrew, or that Judaism does not distinguish clearly between religious, national, racial, or ethnic identities. One of its central concepts is "halakha", sometimes translated as "law"", which guides religious practice and belief and many aspects of daily life.

But what exactly IS religion?

Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values. Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature.

The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system, Some religions have organized behaviors, clergy, a definition of what constitutes adherence or membership, congregations of laity, regular meetings or services for the purposes of veneration of a deity or for prayer, holy places (either natural or architectural), and/or scriptures. The practice of a religion may also include sermons, commemoration of the activities of a god or gods, sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trance, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, music, art, dance, public service, or other aspects of human culture.

However, there are examples of religions for which some or many of these aspects of structure, belief, or practices are absent.

The development of religion has taken different forms in different cultures. Some religions place an emphasis on belief, while others emphasize practice. Some religions focus on the subjective experience of the religious individual, while others consider the activities of the religious community to be most important. Some religions claim to be universal, believing their laws and cosmology to be binding for everyone, while others are intended to be practiced only by a closely defined or localized group.

Anthropologists John Monoghan and Peter Just state that, "it seems apparent that one thing religion or belief helps us do is deal with problems of human life that are significant, persistent, and intolerable. One important way in which religious beliefs accomplish this is by providing a set of ideas about how and why the world is put together that allows people to accommodate anxieties and deal with misfortune."

I find that definition, most apt.

One modern academic theory of religion, social constructionism, says that religion is a modern concept that suggests all spiritual practice and worship follows a model similar to the Abrahamic religions as an orientation system that helps to interpret reality and define human beings, and thus religion, as a concept, has been applied inappropriately to non-Western cultures that are not based upon such systems, or in which these systems are a substantially simpler construct.

As stated above, preliminary studies in Comparative Religion and Divinity can include looking at questions such as; What is belief? What is the nature of belief? What is knowledge? How is knowledge acquired? Even; to what extent is it possible for a given subject or entity to be known.

How do we form beliefs? Psychologists study belief formation and the relationship between beliefs and actions. Beliefs form in a variety of ways: We tend to internalise the beliefs of the people around us during childhood. Political beliefs depend most strongly on the political beliefs most common in the community where we live. Most individuals believe the religion they were taught in childhood.

People may adopt the beliefs of a charismatic leader, even if those beliefs fly in the face of all previous beliefs, and produce actions that are clearly not in their own self-interest. Is belief voluntary? Rational individuals need to reconcile their direct reality with any said belief.

Physical trauma, especially to the head, can radically alter a person's beliefs. What does that say about belief?

However, even educated people, well aware of the process by which beliefs form, still strongly cling to their beliefs, and act on those beliefs sometimes, even against their own self-interest.

I remember years ago seeing a tv documentary on Scientology. The son of the founder of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard, was being interviewed and he was asked the question; “Why did the memebrs go along with such crazy stuff, some of them were well educated and included professionals such as lawers, doctors, engineers and people who were quiet intelligent. Hubbard junior’s answer was, “They were intellectually smart but they were not emotionally smart.” – I find that food for thought and a key dynamic in the process we are dealing with here. How strongly are our beliefs connected to our emotions?

In Anna Rowley's Leadership Theory, she states "If you want your beliefs to change. It's proof that you are keeping your eyes open, living fully, and welcoming everything that the world and people around you can teach you." This means that peoples' beliefs should evolve as they gain new experiences.

To an extent we could link the purpose of belief with The purpose of religion in a personal and social context.

Again the quote; “One important way in which religious beliefs accomplish this is by providing a set of ideas about how and why the world is put together that allows people to accommodate anxieties and deal with misfortune."

Some things are established hoaxes, like the Bermuda Triangle. Not only has it been shown to be a concoction of popular writers, but the numbers themselves show that there are not more crashes or sinkings in that area than in other comparable places (it is one of the most traversed areas on the globe). The Bermuda Triangle does not exist. Yet, there are those who almost automatically believe, without further exploration. Some questions cannot be answered, like the existence of god(s) so belief in this case is understandable. But what is the difference between something that can be proven, and something that cannot be? Now, there may or may not be a monster in Loch Ness, but why the need to believe?

I did plan to write an extensive post for the Loch Ness thread that addresses these questions (great ones too :thumbsup: - because humans have always had this dynamic and interaction with the world) ... but i was waiting for rain and more indoor activities opportunity ... its nice out there away from the computer :) ) .... I'll get to that - I find it a very interesting subject.

Why is that any different from having a theory, such as having roaches in your basement, checking it out and finding nothing? Do you have to believe in the roaches? Will you continue to believe you have them, even after overwhelming evidence you don't? Isn't that delusional? What is the line between belief and delusion, if there is one?

I have goannas living under my cabin - sometimes. Years ago when my then GF lived here she dreamed there was tunnel under the house and the Goannas and me were down in there. It feels like to me there is something under there. Some strange physical events have been witnessed here, not just by me. Here, goannas are supposed to be the guardians to underground entrances to 'psychic earth networks' (sorry, I cant even pronounce the correct term let alone spell it). An aboriginal elder stayed here and without the background info he talked about the tunnels and the network and where they went and other stuff. I have been under the cabin and looked ... and, of course, there are no tunnels or goannas nests of anything. :) ... although sometimes they get under there and hang out.

The why, wherefore and workings will be explained more in the, to come later, Lake Monster post [ Warning! Patrick Harpur alert ;) ]

It, eventually, all comes down to the nature of 'reality' and how we perceive it.
 

ravenest

I think that it can be easy for people to mix up faith and belief. These are intertwined, I think, in that faith provides an internal support to a belief to a point where it becomes fact for the believer.

Thats a great way of putting it! I would tweak it slightly and change "fact" to 'truth' -because there can be faith and belief not based on facts but on things .... 'less tangible' i.e. 'truth' may be able to be established by other than recourse to factual information ?

? ... still thinking about that one
 

Milfoil

closrepaxa said:
There might also be mentioned that there are also non-spiritual beliefs that don't have a leg to stand on. People still believe that Earth is the center of the universe, should that belief be respected, even though it flies in the face of objective truth? What about the belief that vaccines cause autism, even though the preponderance of medical studies conclude it is wrong and misguided? Climate change denial relies only on belief, even though it is accepted as fact by the scientific community, should it be respected like any other belief?

Ah but science keeps getting it wrong, then amending their theories. I remember in the 70's when everyone was going on about global freezing, the new Ice age and how the ozone layer would take over 10'000 years to recover. Of course, it was all hogwash. There are links between autism and vaccinating against several diseases at once (MMR) instead of separately but there is still a lot of science yet to be done to answer these questions either way. Only 150 to 200 years ago the Earth was much colder with a mini ice age, the Thames froze over each year and we have been warming up since then. 3000 to 6000 years ago it was much warmer and wetter. Nobody has all the answers and proof so offering today's proof is not always any kind of assurance that it is really a fact we can build upon.

However, even educated people, well aware of the process by which beliefs form, still strongly cling to their beliefs, and act on those beliefs sometimes, even against their own self-interest.


. . . . “One important way in which religious beliefs accomplish this is by providing a set of ideas about how and why the world is put together that allows people to accommodate anxieties and deal with misfortune."


. . . . It, eventually, all comes down to the nature of 'reality' and how we perceive it.

Yes, belief seems to be a need that we all have, a consensus of a reality that makes sense of the world and the pain of living in it. People will choose to believe (have faith) in something which is unproven or provably inaccurate, simply because to not do so returns the world to chaos, unpredictability and a feeling of being very alone.

Feelings are so closely intertwined with thoughts that even when a rational and provable truth is offered, sometimes it cannot be accepted because the feelings and emotions associated with the irrational belief are too strong to deny. Fear being a major one.

Many religions rely upon this to underpin their doctrine.

Truth is a notoriously fragile and plastic concept. Every day we learn new 'truths' about established facts which turn them on their heads, it's the way that science defines the Universe, by testing each fact again and again. So what we believe to be a solid fact today may well be hogwash in 50 years time when another truth is proven!

Delusional belief, however, is quite different and often stemming from chemical differences in the brain and body (anyone who has taken a strong painkiller such as morphine will know that). Those who have a serious, organic chemical imbalance in the brain or endocrine system can have delusional thoughts associated with irrational behaviour simply down to a lack of dopamine or too much testosterone for example. The reasoning ability is then compromised and belief becomes delusional as a result. No amount of reasoning, proving, offering facts or anything else will help because the delusions are supported by ultra strong feelings and emotions (and often hallucinations, voices etc). Though it's not fair to say that the hallucinations and voices are not real or do not exist, and it would be more reasonable to say that they do not form part of the consensus reality that most of us share but what is important is whether that person's beliefs bring them or others into danger.

With organisations and cults such as Scientology, the leaders usually pick up on this depressed, unbalanced or delusional state in new recruits and offer them a way out of the chaos. Form, function, hierarchy, organisational structure and doctrine which makes them feel accepted and gives hope. That elated feeling or emotion of being happy, accepted and part of something greater than oneself is a very difficult one to offer any proof against since it is self evident to the new recruit, so to accept anything said against it risks sliding right back down to the place of chaos and pain again. Who wants to do that?

Great subject, interesting to discuss, thanks Closrapexa
 

Richard

Ah but science keeps getting it wrong, then amending their theories.......

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." —Ralph Waldo Emerson​

Scientific theories are based on observed phenomena and are amended as new discoveries are made, thank goodness! Absolute truth is an abstract philosophical concept. Science is phenomenological, not metaphysical.

Belief systems can claim absolute truth because they are not logically falsifiable.
 

Zephyros

Belief systems can claim absolute truth because they are not logically falsifiable.

Not to disparage you, but that's also an overused term I don't understand. Many religions, for example, do have a belief system built on certain constructs. Even though we may disagree about how sweeping some of these are, they are still systematic, and perhaps even logical. Religion usually involves a certain discipline, which may or may not have to do with denial of certain pleasures.

However, we often see people who have no discipline, and no system. If I believe my deity loves me no matter what, where is the impetus to improve? There have been many threads by religious people who struggle to resolve their Tarot with their religion, and they are invariably told that Tarot is not evil, etc. But what if, according to the system they come from, it really is evil? How are seemingly contradictory beliefs resolved, if at all? Should they even be?

Now, I'm not saying fanaticism is the only proper mode of worship; I know a few ultra Orthodox men who are happily out of the closet, and do find ways to resolve their faith with their orientation. But at what point does it become too comfortable, and rather than the spirit being tested, it ends up apologizing for itself? In other words, does God, contrary to everything we've been told, serve Man, rather than the opposite?