The Fool and The Hanged Man as free spirits

ThusSpokeZarathustra

I see a lot of similarities between The Fool and The Hanged Man. Barring their biggest difference--that The Fool is a figure in motion and The Hanged Man is not--what is the difference between these cards? To me, they both seem to define the "free spirit" in all of us--someone who has removed themselves from the mainstream to see and do things in their own unique way. Neither truly care what others think of them and their strength comes from their own personally-granted freedom.
 

PAMUYA

Hummmm... they have both removed themselves, one is moving and doing as they please not caring what others think, the other hangs upside down, seeing life through new perspective, one is not patient, one is. One is just starting their journey no planning, the other stops during their journey to contemplate. One is a free spirit, one is a martyr, hanging there waiting. There is so much more to these cards. Check this out.
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/meanings/hanged_man.shtml
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/meanings/fool.shtml
 

RavenDarkWind

The Fool is starting out with a blank slate, The Hanged Man is having his rewritten. Not sure if that makes sense.
 

ThusSpokeZarathustra

PAMUYA said:
Hummmm... they have both removed themselves, one is moving and doing as they please not caring what others think, the other hangs upside down, seeing life through new perspective, one is not patient, one is. One is just starting their journey no planning, the other stops during their journey to contemplate. One is a free spirit, one is a martyr, hanging there waiting. There is so much more to these cards. Check this out.
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/meanings/hanged_man.shtml
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/meanings/fool.shtml
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I've read those descriptions (they're quite nice!) but they didn't quite clear up this query for me. Thank you for your side-by-side comparisons. Allow me to play devil's advocate, in an effort to better illuminate these cards for me: is it not the case that both are seeing things through new perspectives, not caring what others think? I certainly see your latter points, but I wonder if the former qualities of each card do not also apply to the other.

RavenDarkWind said:
The Fool is starting out with a blank slate, The Hanged Man is having his rewritten. Not sure if that makes sense.
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It certainly does! Would you say, then, that The Hanged Man may be the "fool" of the cards post-Death? I have heard many people say that they think of the cards post-Death in a sort of "afterlife," describing figures of the aeons and a progression of transcendence.

Or is The Hanged Man simply The Fool's reversal, sharing the qualities of being free-spirited, but acting in opposing ways?
 

Thirteen

ThusSpokeZarathustra said:
To me, they both seem to define the "free spirit" in all of us--someone who has removed themselves from the mainstream to see and do things in their own unique way. Neither truly care what others think of them and their strength comes from their own personally-granted freedom.
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While I'm totally on board with where you're going with this, and in strong agreement, I do think that "free spirit" may be a problematic term to use for this in regards to the Hanged Man. The key to what we call a "free spirit" isn't just that the person thinks differently from the rest of us, and is "free" of society's requirements in what to be/think...it's that society sees his individuality as harmless. Innocent and charming rather than threatening.

But the Hanged-Man, also known as the "Traitor" is someone who's spiritual individuality is seen as threatening. It's why he's seen as a martyr, as someone making a sacrifice. He's giving up being part of society in order to follow this spiritual path. Within, he may absolutely fit the definition, having set himself and his spirit free. However, from the view of those looking at him, he is not a "free spirit." And the term "free spirit" is one that is typically applied by those looking at the person, not the person himself. So, I would say that the Fool is very much a free spirit--innocent and unthreatening in his "free-ness," while the Hanged-Man, who has caused others unease and continues to do so as he hangs upsidedown, not right-side up like the rest of us, is anything but. ;)
 

ThusSpokeZarathustra

Thirteen said:
While I'm totally on board with where you're going with this, and in strong agreement, I do think that "free spirit" may be a problematic term to use for this in regards to the Hanged Man. The key to what we call a "free spirit" isn't just that the person thinks differently from the rest of us, and is "free" of society's requirements in what to be/think...it's that society sees his individuality as harmless. Innocent and charming rather than threatening.

But the Hanged-Man, also known as the "Traitor" is someone who's spiritual individuality is seen as threatening. It's why he's seen as a martyr, as someone making a sacrifice. He's giving up being part of society in order to follow this spiritual path. Within, he may absolutely fit the definition, having set himself and his spirit free. Though looking like he's restrained, he is free within, and like the Fool, unafraid, etc.

But from the view of those looking at him, he is not a "free spirit." And the term "free spirit" is one that is typically applied by those looking at the person, not the person himself. So, I would say that the Fool is very much a free spirit--innocent and unthreatening in his "free-ness," while the Hanged-Man, who has caused others unease and continues to do so as he hangs upsidedown, not right-side up like the rest of us, is anything but. ;)
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I appreciate your insights, but I'm not sure I agree. At least, I can say that perhaps I used the term "free spirit," but meant to describe something else...

I see the Hanged Man as having the qualities of a free spirit, at least internally. I don't typically think of him as a traitor, though I know in some decks he's defined this way. I understand the Hanged Man as someone whose bondage is self-fulfilled. The Hanged Man could perhaps be the "wise man" of the free spirits, although I can see where he is distinguished from the Hermit in that he may be seen as weird or unfavorable.

But as you point out, the term "free spirit" is usually prescribed by the onlooker, and despite what the Hanged Man feels inside, others would likely not see him as free. Perhaps I mean to say that they he and The Fool are both "free-thinkers?"
 

Alice19

ThusSpokeZarathustra said:
I see a lot of similarities between The Fool and The Hanged Man. Barring their biggest difference--that The Fool is a figure in motion and The Hanged Man is not--what is the difference between these cards? To me, they both seem to define the "free spirit" in all of us--someone who has removed themselves from the mainstream to see and do things in their own unique way. Neither truly care what others think of them and their strength comes from their own personally-granted freedom.
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Sometimes I interpret the Hanged Man as someone who is suspended in a potentially dangerous situation but is unaware of it, seeing the world in an inverted way. (Though with the more positive decks like the traditional Rider-Waite I'll compare it to the myth of Odin's hanging - suffering by choice is an inversion of normal logic).
The fool I mostly interpret as someone who shows initiative but doesn't have the understanding to be successful.
With both cards I (mostly) see ignorance as the underlying quality.
But your interpretations makes me want to take a second look at them, I'm always interested in new perspectives.
 

nisaba

Alice19 said:
Sometimes I interpret the Hanged Man as someone who is suspended in a potentially dangerous situation but is unaware of it,
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Funny, that's exactly how I see the Fool. Stumbling along blithely, completely unaware of the cliff.

The Hanged Man, now ... he has given himself over to the critics. He has been bound hand and (one) foot. He has been hoisted onto a gallows/frame/tree. You'd think he might have noticed that happening. What if he became thirsty,. and tried to go for a glass of water. Are you sure he doesn't realise the position he's in?

No, unlike the Fool, the Hanged Man is *very* aware of his world and its dangers and/or limitations. His saving grace is that he doesn't fight against limitations he cannot overpower: instead he saves his energy and meditates, getting at least some value out of his time. I've often thought that if I were similarly limited - say, in prison and in solitary, I'd spend fifteen hours a day meditating, too. That is essentially the situation the Hanged Man is in.
 

JoyousGirl

I think the hanged man has a little too much of a sense of responsibility to be a completely free spirit. He's hanging there as an example to others that go by. There's a lack of comfort, but a sense of resignation and acceptance because there is a knowledge that something will be gained through loss/sacrifice (Odin's eye). He's kind of gone into another level of the world because he's not grounded on 2 feet, he's hanging in a state of limbo between 2 worlds - the material and the spiritual. So not necessarily a free spirit - but one that's aware - of consequences and something other than himself.

We can be a selfish lot - as the fool can sometimes be - a baby. The fool is definitely of earth - a physical existence starting out on an exciting journey - like a baby coming into the world and trying anything and everything. Risk and adventure : what's that? - a hotplate. Ouch! What's that? a sandpit. Wow!
 

Thirteen

ThusSpokeZarathustra said:
IBut as you point out, the term "free spirit" is usually prescribed by the onlooker, and despite what the Hanged Man feels inside, others would likely not see him as free. Perhaps I mean to say that they he and The Fool are both "free-thinkers?"
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That works. :) And you can describe the Hermit that way, too.

And as for distinguishing him from the Hermit...the Hermit is the one who is seen as weird and strange. He's a hermit, right, and that's considered strange ("He's just a weird old hermit...." Luke Skywalker's uncle says in describing Obi-Wan). The Hanged Man, however, isn't just weird and strange, he's hanging upside down. Whether he did it to himself or someone did it to him, it's disturbing.
 
Magician and 9 of Swords (help needed) Temperance as The Fool, reincarnated