Stephen Hawking, atheism and faith

wooden-eye

There is so much emotion which wells up a I read this discussion. I so strongly agree with what you say, I am a veritable volcano. You all express so eloquently, that which is too charged for me to make coherent and English is my first language and I did have plenty of education.
So I am not sure how this connects, but Tarot studies, whatever their motivation, opens doors to Mysticism; Thinking and contemplation are involved and the world opens up. Scientism, Money and institutions become immature belief systems, the religions of our time, their pedlars, however eloquent, rendered disappointing and often cynical, knowing advancers of 'Empire'.
I find increasingly I have no beliefs at all. I choose to hold all above my head, like Ivanna's balloons, I may call upon them, but they have no weight.
To express this, I paint.
 

2dogs

Well ... in such a field that would be bridging ground, it would have to, by necessity, contain those refutations ... otherwise we are still stuck in a view of Cartesian Dualism ... dividing and setting things 'against' each other - that is how one gets a 'refutation for every idea'. That's what I meant by a 'bridging theory'; a theory or point of view that allows both sides without refutation ... a mode of mind that is non-Cartesian - because the divided dualistic paradigm can not comprehend it.

Thats why I like Harpur's work ; http://www.gnostics.com/review4-99.html

Theories worry me - I'm afraid of getting lost in speculation, fantasy, argument and counter argument, endlessly moving from one book to the next and never reaching a conclusion. Or maybe it's generalised religion-phobia. The trouble is I don't have enough facts of my own for a solid world view. However, having disposed of most of my books, there are a couple that failed to sell, and I wonder if that might be for a reason, so am having another go at The Book Of Thoth.
 

ravenest

Okay thats fine (I am just not used to someone delaying their world theory until they access sufficient facts ... you are a rare bird :) )
 

2dogs

This week I couldn't decide whether or not to sign up for a group planning to study one deck a month for the 12 months of 2015, so being a scientifically minded sort of person drew cards from The Photographic Card Deck of the Solar System for the "outcome if I joined" and "outcome if I didn't join". The card for "if I joined" was Dwarf Planets. This shows the largest known "Kuiper Belt Objects" and their moons, displaying and naming 12 objects of varying degrees of insignificance so I got the idea of studying 12 different small topics, some more useful than others. So far, so good, but the card for "if I didn't join" was the asteroid Gaspra. At first sight the montage of flyby images suggests the alternative of looking at just the one thing from a number of different angles - but a closer inspection reveals there are only 11 photos! Yes, 11 not 12 - this is just the sort of glaring inaccuracy that goes to prove Prof. Hawking's and Dawkins' point as to the unreliability of this whole fortune telling business. Well, I suppose there would be 12 images if you turned the card over and counted the diagram on the back, but I'm sure this wouldn't be scientifically allowable. :joke:
 

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ravenest

Interesting this got bumped, as I saw the 'No God needed' Hawking doco the other night ( I had been avoiding it.) .

Its a load of crud ... backflips and doublespeak ... to try and say old things already known in other words in the 'science-speak' they agree with and approve of and then pretend they invented it.

Two things here:

1. Scientism ..... :rolleyes: ..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism

2. " Think about this, though -- Michelson & Morley set out to measure the effect of "the ether" on the speed of light and, failing repeatedly to find the anticipated effect, the scientific community threw out the entire concept. A few decades later, building in part upon their work, Einstein demonstrated (although Maxwell had really already done so two decades before Michelson & Morley conducted their experiments) that the effect they were attempting to measure would not be found. Proof that there is no such thing as aether, right?

Well...

Not so fast.

Einstein used the term in general relativity as a label for the gravitational field. Since then, people like Feynman, deBroglie and Dirac have also revisited the concept. Now we have this troubling little detail called "dark matter..."

I think the concept should have been refined rather than discarded. " ('Brian' - a Scientist)

But did they disregard it ... or just rename it and 'pretend' they discovered it ? (Like Blaxland and Co 'discovered' a way to cross the Blue Mountains and give access from Sydney to the interior ... great 'discovers' that followed the centuries old Aboriginal route :rolleyes: )

This is typical and Hawking's doco 'proving' God doesnt exist smacks of it! So much seemed flawed in the logical steps. They would explain things 'wrong' and then 'correct' them. When everything he said could have been said using an 'original old model' in the usually triangular arrangement;

Energy

Matter - Space.

(I know I tend to reduce everything to this triangular model - but THEY did it this time - they said, to make a Universe you need 3 ingredients - but listed them wrong ... then reduced them to two, then later admitted a 3rd :confused: )

With "matter and space" as two 'polarities of energy' - without having to refer to 'stuff' (as opposed to 'void' or 'space' ) first as matter then as mass and then back to matter again, and then try to explain the 'very difficult concept' of energy being in space that has no mass ... as well as in matter. And ( in the past) denying ether and using 'void space' as a container for missing energy, when it IS energy but manifests in the opposite 'pole' of matter... and all explained by a a guy digging a hole to make a mound ... AND the total fudge of removing the 'digger' ... the thing that 'caused the original 'separation' of hole and mound by bringing non-existent time into the equation (before the big bang) to remove any 'cause' as there cannot be a cause without time.


the fudge he made:

according to that documentary;

1. We need 3 ingredients; matter ... then energy, then space.

2. But matter is energy, so now just 2 ingredients ; energy and space (so they jump from a trinitarian to a dualistic approach).

3. But that doesnt work out as they believe there is more energy around than there is in 'matter' [which they just converted to energy ( huh?) ]

4 . So they postulate the missing energy (which is supposedly equivalent to matter) is in 'space' (which they postulated was the opposite of matter - although energy = matter ) .

What a convoluted load of ..... hole digging.

And then walk off dusting his hands (figuratively) feeling smug that it is all proved (they even said that at the end ; here we are on earth quiet pleased with ourselves that we have worked everything out).

I mean .... really !

... cant one just give the ideas out and admit there is a point beyond which we just dont know ?

But then I suppose they just could not have explained in the triangular relationship at the beginning as it would have made it more obvious that what they were saying was a version of an age old principle that can be applied to understand MANY things, as a large part of the such presentations seemed to be scoffing about how dumb we were before modern science and how smart we are now.

Energy : matter / space . Matter and space both contain energy ... the same way as Ying and Yang both hold Tao and positive and negative both hold charge. Both polarities cancel each other, come from 0 ... make 0 ( 0=2 ... or 0 = +1 + -1 ) ... scientists acknowledge this in their idea of 'superpartners in 'M - theory'. This is old knowledge in new scientific doublespeak. And if they had explained it that way in the first place , it would not have appeared so convoluted.

Aside from the fact that they just dismiss what causes separation in the first place (the same way they show sub atomic particles appearing and disappearing from and into 'nowhere' ... and justify a big bang ... without cause, coming from nowhere in the first place ... but ADD , their OWN ' for no reason ' .

It is a breakdown in their logic and philosophy. They removed the guy digging the hole from the equation ... 'it just happens' ... pfffft !

As I see it, yes we have more 'reasonable' approaches and better technologies now with a lot of science, but also a lot of problems associated with it as well.

What I thought at the end of that show; .... scientism and Hubris.
 

Starshower

Riotous applause for that analysis, ravenest!
All of the above happenings pre-require Time too. Even for anything to 'suddenly appear' or manifest - EVEN 'for no reason' or 'from nowhere' (whatever that means.)
Everything extant is part of a process ... & therefore time-bound.

Scientism & hubris indeed.
 

ravenest

Even Cowley postulates ; "A factor infinite and unknown. "
 

2dogs

Well "reason" is excluded from Scientism at the start - the Universe always has to come from nowhere for no purpose. ;)

I got far enough in The Book Of Thoth to get the "0=2" idea and that makes sense.

The point about trinities is also thought provoking, it's making me think of a trinity of:

Chaos / randomness / mass-energy / growth / expansion / desire / instinct,

Law / mathematical rules / repeating patterns / restriction / intellect / reason,

Space-time as the setting in which the above can interact to develop something interesting.
 

Milfoil

Interesting discussion, good points Ravenest. For me, it narrows down to just one thing - an open mind.

As a scientist, Hawking should be testing, trying, proving and opening his mind to all possibilities. Seems that he doesn't. His own black hole theory is being strongly tested and nearly refuted by other scientists and there have been enough famous scientists who have hypothesised, only to recant and try again - esoteric belief within a scientific framework is no different.

None of us know for sure so we should all keep an open mind, including Hawking et al.
 

ravenest

Well "reason" is excluded from Scientism at the start - the Universe always has to come from nowhere for no purpose. ;)

I got far enough in The Book Of Thoth to get the "0=2" idea and that makes sense.

The point about trinities is also thought provoking, it's making me think of a trinity ...

Space-time as the setting in which the above can interact to develop something interesting.

This is one of the hermetic principles we can observe throughout nature. Sometimes it seems its base is 4, but on examination it is the 'relationship between' 3 and 4 ... or 4 things are formed as the first 3 makes an overall thing ( the thing itself is the 4th principle - eg 'earth; is a combiataion of the other 3 elements ... or the 3 points and sides of a triangle make up the thing itself, the 4th thing is the triangle ... we have gone from a concept of 3 in the ideal world, to a ting itself, on the earth plane - a triangle.

It is everywhere in nature.

For us, it all starts with duality.

As one implies two, two implies three. Via the process in 2 a new view is formed, a ‘new’ view of the self as gained by contemplation or awareness of the self. [Or the vibration of the ‘string’ forms a ‘particle’ or ‘energy field’.] Something has been gained, even if it is ‘just’ internal experience. In geometry this is symbolised by the concept of ‘surface’. It is also represented by the triangle. The triangle represents structure, order and form, definition and rigidity. It represents either; Singularity further explained by its polarities or a mediating ‘middle path’ between two polarities. With 3 ‘space’ has been created; up/down, left/right, forwards/backwards.

Now we begin to see how maps of 3 can be useful; The three Gunas – rajas, satvas and tamas, the three alchemical principles – sulphur, salt and mercury, The Holy Trinity – Father, Son, Holy Spirit, the three primary colours – red blue yellow and many other things like; Yin, Yang, Tao, even in electricity – positive, negative and current or temperature, moisture, light or Mother Father Child (to cut through all the mythic terminology). (In Thelema the ‘product’ of Hadit and Nuit {who represents zero or the circle – whose radius is infinite as Hadit represents the point or centre of the circle, which is located everywhere} is Ra Hoor Khuit; motion or ‘force’.

But with three we are still in the realm of idea, or the ideal world. It is a little beyond our normal comprehension and experience (which is why people have always used symbols, like maps or hieroglyphs or gods).

On the Tree of Life of the Kabbalah this ‘Supernal Triad’ lies above the ‘Abyss’.

Energies ‘travelling’ into manifestation pass through the third Sphere, Binah and become formulated, solidified, restricted and directed to become further manifest in the fourth realm. Alternatively, energies travelling ‘up’ the Tree, towards duality, unity and beyond, become liberated from form and restriction and Binah becomes a realm of liberation. [In the realm of physics this is the 3-D world of matter.]

As two implied three, three implies four. The energies manifesting in four take on the ‘principles of four’ and are able to operate in a word of ‘double duality’ (2 x 2). Although many systems use the map of 4 it has its roots in 3 and extensions to 5. In four we have the map of the 4 elements; fire, water, air, earth, the four suits of the Tarot, the four worlds of the Kabbalah and many more which we will look at below.

Four brings the concept of space from the 3 (up-down, left-right, forwards-backwards) which define space. The 4 is the result, ‘space’ itself. In physics it represents the concept of time.

Five moves more into the world of action. One analogy is the pyramid; the four sides can be extended up into the point. We can get the idea of motion and action. It can also relate to the pentagram; the four elements and spirit. Some traditions have 5 elements, either including ‘spirit’ as an element or adding an element such as wood or metal. In physics this is the idea of motion.

Six solidifies the manifestation of the second triangle. It can be represented as the hexagram; two superimposed triangles, one pointing up, the other down. It can represent the four elements and spirit, with spirit in its duality of active and passive, or the four elements, their origin in spirit and their connection to ‘earth’.

[ “Height, width, and length constitute three-dimensional space, and time gives a total of four observable dimensions; however, string theories initially supported the possibility of ten dimensions – the remaining six of which we cannot detect directly. This was later increased to 11 dimensions based on various interpretations of the ten dimensional theory that led to five partial theories ... Super-gravity theory also played a significant part in establishing the necessity of the 11th dimension.” (Wikipeadia). The relationship of this model to the Qabbalistic model of 10 spheres of Creation (with an 11th and ‘hidden’ sphere – Daath, situated in the ‘Abyss’) and its manifestation through the 5 elements is an interesting correlation .]

I have been quiet lineal. There are concepts that relate to reflection (or refraction), that is, the Supernal Triad on the Tree of Life reflects through (or on the waters of) the Abyss and makes another downward pointing triangle (the first triangle implies a second, as 1 implies 2) and of course this requires a third triangle, and all three come together in the manifest realm, to make the 10th sphere of the Tree of Life.

But there is also the idea (of lineal manifestation) within this system of the Lightning Flash, where the energy travels from 1 – 10.

This might seem all good so far but what about zero? The above system seems to be rather ‘patriarchal' and relating to cultures who have a singularity genesis. We adopted the concept of zero mathematically from the Islamic world but it can also be seen in Kabbalah in the worlds of pre-existence; Ain, Ain Soph and Ain Soph Ur (and again we can see how the Supernal Triad is a reflection from the triad of ‘negative existence’).

Adding the concept of zero we can see how that implies the number one. I am sure physicists can explain how the ‘Big Bang’ came from nothing better than I can, but a simple mathematical equation will suffice here; if we consider the manifest world is duality and things appear in polarities, opposite pairs, we have + ‘side’ of one thing and – ‘side’ of another, if they are equal values , ‘n’, then we have +n + -n = 0 , therefore, 0 = -n + +n.

[ “String theory’s concept of super symmetry is a fancy way of saying that each particle has a related particle called a superpartner. Keeping track of the names of these superpartners can be tricky, so here are the rules in a nutshell.
• The superpartner of a fermion begins with an “s,” so the superpartner of an “electron” is the “selectron” and the superpartner of the “quark” is the “squark.”
• The superpartner of a boson ends in “–ino,” so the superpartner of a “photon” is the “photino” and of the “graviton” is the “gravitino.”
Use the following table to see some examples of the superpartner names.
Some Superpartner Names
Standard Particle Superpartner
Higgs boson Higgsino
Neutrino Sneutrino
Lepton Slepton
Z boson Zino
W boson Wino
Gluon Gluino
Muon Smuon
Top quark Stop squark.” – Wikipedia article on String Theory.]

Now, looking at any ‘n’, + or –, we can understand it further by converting it to the world of duality that we operate in. So we have + and – of +n and + and – of –n. In the elemental world this is shown as a division into active and passive. Active elements are Fire and Air; passive elements are Water and Earth.

So, looking at maps of four the obvious place to start seems to be the four elements. But why do we need maps anyway? For the Hermeticist all things are interrelated but some vibrate within specific energy fields. It can be handy for comprehension of interrelationships to draw the line somewhere, so we develop maps of 1 - singularity, 2 - duality, 3 - trinities (as mentioned above), 4 - Elements, 7 - planets, 10 – spheres (Qabbalah), 12 – signs (astrology), 22 paths (Qabbalah), 64 Hexagrams (I Ching).

The important concept is the connection and interrelationship between things and not viewing things as separate from each other or ourselves as separate from the things around us. One versed in this philosophy will not just see a ‘thing’ but all things related to it will come to mind so one can understand the ‘one thing’ more holistically and how it relates to the self and the self relates to many things, the things within or outside of a ’field’ or relationship. It is a way of increasing our knowledge and understanding of ourselves, others and environment, that hopefully leads to wisdom in our actions.

This is probably easiest understood by the relationship to the four elements and the psyche and it is my view that for correct operation they should be in a particular order of manifestation.

The four elements are Fire, Water, Air and Earth. They respond to; fire, the Self - inspiration, intuition, individuality and connection to spirit, the True Will; water, the emotional body - the unconscious, the dream world, feelings, empathy, understanding, etc.; air, the intellectual and rational body, logic, thought, ‘mind’, etc. and lastly, earth, the physical body.

The balance is important, consider this; we have a ‘Eureka’ moment (Some say great writing, music, creation, performance by a ‘Master’ comes from the otherworld. In moments like these we can become aware that it is more than ourselves creating, sometimes it is as though ‘we’ have little to do with the process, we are just a ‘channel’), we are ‘inspired’ with an ‘idea’, we make it our ‘own’ and begin to go about bringing it into manifestation. The fire is then tempered by water; next we should see how we feel about it, does it sit right, do we have emotive issues to sort out about it? Some say, “sleep on it first”, what is that but ‘putting it through the unconscious’? Next, with air, we should analyse it, see if it is possible, the how and where and why, think it through and make a logical plan. Lastly earth; we need to DO something about it - put the plan into action and bring it to manifestation, otherwise we are uninspired or unoriginal, we are doing something we don’t feel right about, or we haven’t used our intellect and logic, leading to inspirational ideas that can make one feel good but can leave one sitting out in a field for days waiting for aliens to come and dissolve all of our difficulties. And lastly, what is the use of any of it unless we DO something about it and ‘earth’ the current – we would be caught up in a ‘pipe-dream’.

The order of manifestation and hierarchy in the psyche is as important as balance. The difficulty with the standard modern mind set is that many of us don’t really understand our individuality, individuation, ‘True Will’ or spirit. Mostly our emotions are confused and run rampant. So what is left but mind, supposedly third place in the hierarchy, to fill the gap? Mind - this is one of our major problems, as well as a major asset. How can we not deny mind yet use it as an asset while moderate its difficult nature? We need to get mind in its place, it should be third in the hierarchy. One cannot force it, it will rebel.

Here are some more systems of 3:4 ..... ( too long ! )