Minchiate - Where is the Papess?

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This is currently the last posting in the History & Iconography
/Marseilles Decks -- II La Papesse:

smleite said:
I was lead to study this card in a special position very recently. To start with, I’ll say that she actually comes to me as the personification of a virtue – maybe Faith, but better yet Prudence, the missing fourth cardinal virtue. It is true that Faith was presented with a book (the Gospels), and that some representations of the Papess included a cross, another symbol of Faith. Plus, she is a Papess!! And still…

In fifteenth-century imagery, the virtue of Prudentia (Prudence) was some times depicted as a woman sitting in a chair, holding a book in her hand, and showing it to disciples at her feet (in Émile Mâle, L'art religieux du XIIe siècle en France, Étude sur les origines de l'iconographie du moyen âge; with English translation).

The Greek goddess Métis, Zeus’s first wife, also personified this virtue, as can be seen in the celebrated tomb of François II, in Nantes cathedral. Her name is usually translated as Prudence, thought it seems that “Counsel” would be a more correct reading (and the reason why it can also be interpreted as Deceit or Perfidy, the “bad” counsel). In addition, Métis also represented wisdom and knowledge; as stated in Hesiod’s Theogony, “she knew more than all the gods or mortal people”.
This kind of early representation of Prudence, sitting in a chair and teaching from a book, reminds obviously Métis and her two main qualities, prudence or advise and wisdom / knowledge. And it reminds me (doesn’t it strike you too?) this High Priestess card. Some authors have tried to find the “fourth” virtue hiding in cards like the Hanged Man, since the other three, Justitia (Justice), Fortitudo (Force), and Temperantia (Temperance), are depicted in a clear manner. Now, I would say the High Priestess is a very logical answer to this question.

And what about the card’s name? Call it the “Popess” or the High Priestess; it still bears a logical connection with the image of Zeus’s counterpart, a Goddess, a Titaness. Also, Métis was considered to be an enchantress, since she was the one that prepared the potion given to Cronos (Uranus) in order to make him vomit the children he had eaten: "When Zeus was grown, he engaged Okeanos' daughter Métis as a colleague. She gave Kronos a drug, by which he was forced to vomit forth first the stone and then the children he had swallowed" - Apollodorus 1.6.

Ah! But Métis – I shall call her Prudence or Counsel – is Athena’s mother, although she seldom receives credits for this, since Zeus ate her before she gave birth, and, as we all know, the goddess came to the world from within her father’s head:
"Zeus, as king of the gods, took as his first wife Métis, and she knew more than all the gods or mortal people. But when she was about to be delivered of the goddess, gray-eyed Athena, then Zeus, deceiving her perception by treachery and by slippery speeches, put her away inside his own belly. This was by the advices of Gaia and starry Ouranos, for so they counseled, in order that no other everlasting god, beside Zeus, should ever be given kingly position. For it had been arranged that, from her, children surpassing in wisdom should be born, first the gray-eyed girl, the Tritogeneia Athena; but then a son to be king over gods and mortals was to be born to her and his heart would be overmastering; but before this, Zeus put her away inside his own belly so that this goddess should think for him, for good and for evil." - Theogony 886
Later on, Zeus was suffering from a headache, and asked Hephaestus to relieve him by striking his head with an axe. Athena jumped out of Zeus' head, fully armed. It is said that Métis stayed forever inside Zeus, remaining as the source for his wisdom. Mother and daughter have several things in common, both presiding over wisdom, knowledge, and the choice of right actions. The goddess Athena was the first to teach the science of numbers and all ancient women's arts, such as cooking, weaving and spinning. She was also the goddess of war, but not in the combative sense, preferring to settle conflict through mediation and good words.

Well, I have another reason to believe that The Popess can be understood as Prudence, and thus associated with Métis. When meditating on my Marseilles deck, I felt the need to find an “opposite” card for each major, in order to understand them better; and then something curious happened. The Popess appeared to me as card number four, and not as number two… odd, till I found out that this was her placement in some early decks (coming after the Empress and the Emperor, and before the Pope). Interesting enough, Métis was the Titaness of the fourth day.

If you consider the Fool to be the last card, them the exact opposite card to The Popess is The Tower. And isn’t The Tower a perfect visual metaphor to Athena’s birth? Even her epithet, the "bright-eyed" goddess, refers to the fact that she was originally a storm and lightning goddess. . . .

His observations are interesting and perhaps shows the development of the papess/empress/emperor/heirophant quartet in the later Marseilles pattern. I personally use the Grand Duke as the Papess (High Priestess), simply because it occupies that position, though I do use the virtue "Faith" as the heirophant. Comments?
 

Tarotphelia

I tend to use the Scorpio card to represent the Papess/ High Priestess aspect.

I also noticed in my Vandenborre deck, that the Papess is replaced by somebody named the Spanish Captain. And that card has a very interesting subliminal going on. But nevermind- different deck, off topic.
 

lionette

Hi full deck and Tarotphelia,

I can only speak hypothetically now because my deck hasn't been delivered yet! Looking over the cards online, tho, I'll be inclined to do different things with this deck. Just can't see using the Grand Duke as either Papess or Hierophant. I like the idea of studying the Virtues deeper to break down the attributes of Papess and Hierophant into the more specific Virtues.

I like the notion of using Charity for Papess qualities. Did a little reading here: <http://tarot.com/about-tarot/library/boneill/papess>
Faith is reading from the tablet as the early Papesses do, but there is more majesty about the Papess than Faith seems to have. The Papess is generally a formal looking woman, fully dressed and seated upright. I see Charity as being more Papess-like. (noticed in the Fiorentine she's holding a flame, but can't make out what it is in Etruria). The Papess is multi-dimensional enough to require 4 virtues to embody her qualities, don't you think? ;)
 

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lionette said:
I like the notion of using Charity for Papess qualities. Did a little reading here: <http://tarot.com/about-tarot/library/boneill/papess>
Faith is reading from the tablet as the early Papesses do, but there is more majesty about the Papess than Faith seems to have. The Papess is generally a formal looking woman, fully dressed and seated upright. I see Charity as being more Papess-like. (noticed in the Fiorentine she's holding a flame, but can't make out what it is in Etruria).
Yes, indeed. I like using what is there as much as I can, thus my little joke about the "Grand Duke" being a shemale since I use this as papesse. There are actually two LWBs in the 1980 Solleone I use, one being by Kaplan but I don't take his comments seriously here; a teabag is more informative, frankly. The Italian LWB is just as informative and moody it seems, or else the babelfish site I used to translate is (?). I will try to find some reference material on the orbs that the guys are holding too. It seems fashionable since *everyone* is seated, holding one.

Oddly enough, I intuitively *prefer* "Charity" as papess but I only note such and resist the urge. I think I will try to study the virtues more. . .
 

nyx*

full deck said:
The Italian LWB is just as informative and moody it seems, or else the babelfish site I used to translate is (?).

No, it's really not that much help. I read Italian okay, but when I'm in a hurry or busy thinking about cards, the meanings don't always stick in my head. I started writing down translations from the LWB and gave up somewhere in the court cards. Many of the meanings there didn't seem like they were actually based on the cards they came with; I was having precious few "a-ha!" moments spurred by what I read there. Also, the LWB just calls the Grand Duke Papessa, so that doesn't help in this situation at all.

So it's not just you or babelfish. The Italian LWB really is pretty useless. I'm working on plowing through the deck card by card and meditating/researching/writing up what makes sense to me for each one. If I had more spare time, I might actually get most of 'em done before I get arthritic. ;)

I lost track of all my fellow minchiate-users for a bit there, but I'm glad I ran into you all again!
 

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A needed book?

It strikes me that some sort of book about the minchiate would be much appreciated, though I understand that Brian Williams wrote one for his minchiate, it is bundled with his deck only.

Too bad indeed!
 

Moonbow

Hi all

I am, at last, catching up on things going on here.... so much to read after you have a week off!!

I think what smleite said is very interesting and makes me wonder whether he has a minchiate deck? As we have discussed in the 'usage' thread, this is one of the most difficult aspects of the deck (I think) - deciding how to treat trumps II III & IIII and where the Papess, Empress, Emperor and Hierophant are.

I see trump II as the Empress, III as Emperor and IIII as hierophant with the Papess 'hidden' within the virtues - she is maybe even all of them put together. Could this be part of the reason why the Marseilles was narrowed down to a 78 card deck? Whichever way we read the cards I am certain she is in there but her qualities are spli.

I have found what Tom Tadfor Little has to say about the deck very informative. Does anyone have any concrete eveidence of how to treat these cards. I wonder, for example, what Brian Williams suggestions in his book are based on (haven't read it all yet)
 

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Gender bending like a champ

I found a useful section about the Etruria Minchiate from Andy's Playing cards http://it.geocities.com/a_pollett/cards17.htm :
The Popess and the Pope are missing, but only the former of the two was replaced by, or maybe renamed as, the Grand-duke. The fifth subject, instead, was simply dropped, causing the Lovers to lose one position, or rank.

the Grand-duke
The Empress is featured as a male character, who wears a beard; this is clearly a consequence of the change occurred in Bologna, by which all the subjects from number II (the Popess) to V (the Pope), were turned into four Moors of equal rank, see also Regional Tarots, part 1. The aforesaid change of the Popess (female) into the Grand-duke (male) follows the same principle.
Furthermore, all three personages hold an identical globe, suggesting that also their rank is the same.
It appears that the Etruria then were modified (Bologna), though I'm not sure what research has led to that conclusion.

I include the II - IIII from the "Le Nuove Minchiate di Firenze" Solleone (1981) which has switched the genders back to what they probably were before that strange incident in Bologna. The 1980 Solleone minchiate also uses the same genderization pattern. The Grand Duke is clearly a woman herein.

"Faith", in the same deck, is also a man instead of a woman. Also, what we might consider the emperor (IIII), in the Marseilles pattern, is the empress (Eastern Emperor) and the III is the Emperor (Western Emperor). I would have suspected that Costantini, the illustrator of these Solleone decks, simply wanted his Emperor to be surrounded by women, however the same placement is present in the Etruria as well, only they are both male.

Once one understands the ordering of this II-IIII, then it allows one to use such but it has taken me a while to reconcile what is here and what isn't since I'm personally more used to the Marseilles pattern within the II-IIII (I like it better).
 

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Moonbow

Interesting full deck

I came across this paragraph on Andy's Playing cards too (while looking at the Visconti section)

QUOTE:
Despite in 1329 Azzo Viconti had officially reconciled with the pope, one among four surviving cards of the Bartolomeo Colleoni Tarot (by Antonio Cicognara, now in the Victoria & Albert Museum, London), features Death in the shape of a skeleton dressed as a cardinal of the Roman Church, an allusion that suggests how the two sides might have still disliked each other.
On these grounds, Manfreda (Sister Manfreda, a member of the Visconti family and follower of a religious sect) would have been likely chosen as a subject for a Visconti tarot, giving birth to the well-known Popess personage, always found in the Marseille pattern. This would also explain why, in time, other patterns changed the subject into a less embarassing one, such as one of the four Moors (Bologna), or the Grand-duke (Florence), or Juno (Switzerland), or Captain Fracasse (Belgium), or even dropped this card (Sicily), see trump table in page III.
END QUOTE

I'm still confused about how to treat these few cards and may ultimately have to go with what feels right to me. Be interesting to see if anyone else has opinions on this.......
 

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Interesting indeed

Yes Moonbrow, that is interesting. It does not help when I post while I am dog tired and subsequently must revise my posts repeatedly!

Your post reminds me of another thread in the History and Iconography section of the forum that deals with some of the same issues regarding the origin of the popess :

http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3165

Much thanks to those that posted before us!

It does make me wonder if the original personage that inspired the popess passed into the imaginative intellect of subsequent generations and was re-invented as a new creature of our own perceptions. I do think like JMD said once, the symbols are alive (to a certain extent), alive because we have helped create them through time, investing them with the energy of our thought.