Study Notes: Chrisitan Astrology

RohanMenon

What is 'restraining by interposition"?

From Lilly Vol 2. Chapter 22 - The questions concerning the First House

The very first chart examined.

"Observing the Moon separated from Trine of Venus applying to Trine of Jupiter, and he posited in the mid heaven, and thereby the malice of Mars restrained by the interposition of Jupiter."

How is Mars restrained by Jupiter? I don't get it.

Thanks in advance.
 

Minderwiz

From Lilly Vol 2. Chapter 22 - The questions concerning the First House

The very first chart examined.

"Observing the Moon separated from Trine of Venus applying to Trine of Jupiter, and he posited in the mid heaven, and thereby the malice of Mars restrained by the interposition of Jupiter."

How is Mars restrained by Jupiter? I don't get it.

Thanks in advance.

The Moon has been bonified by Jupiter, through the trine (itself a benefic aspect). It now applies to Mars, also through a trine (benefic aspect) but Mars is by nature not a benefic planet. Its nature is to be violent. As the Moon is bringing the beneficence of Jupiter, that will moderate or restrain Mars' natural inclinations. Mars will be less violent and more restrained in its effects.
 

RohanMenon

I see it now. Thank You Minderwiz

For those following along

the relevant positions are

Moon : 21 Virgo 22
Jupiter: 24 Taurus 06
Mars; 28 Pisces 40

So the Moon is applying to a trine with Jupiter and then an opposition (not trine, Minderwiz) to Mars. Then it goes Void of Course.

(as I understand it, this isn't translation of light as per Lilly's defintion since that requires a light planet to first aspect a heavy planet and then a heavier planet.

"TRANSLATION.] Translation of light and nature is, when a light Planet seperates from a more weighty one, and presently joyns to another more heavy; and its in this manner,

Let Saturn be in 20. degr. of Aries: Mars in 15 of Aries, and Mercury in 16 of Aries; here

Mercury being a swift Planet seperates from Mars, and translates the vertue of Mars unto Saturn. Its done also as well by any Aspect as by Conjunction."

Mars is not heavier than Jupiter. So this definition doesn't hold.

Bonification is not defined by Lilly as far as I can see from the book, which is a bit surprising, since he generally works bottom up in a very precise manner, so this confused me a bit

So the concept seems to be that, the trine to Jupiter bonifies the Moon who then 'translates' this effect to the next aspect it forms - an opposition to Mars. Would it then be valid to say that Mars de-bonifies (corrupts? I don't know the exact terminology) the Moon which then translates this malefic aspect to the next aspect it forms?
)

Excellent explanation , Minderwiz. Thank You.
 

Minderwiz

(as I understand it, this isn't translation of light as per Lilly's defintion since that requires a light planet to first aspect a heavy planet and then a heavier planet.

"TRANSLATION. Translation of light and nature is, when a light Planet seperates from a more weighty one, and presently joyns to another more heavy; and its in this manner,

Let Saturn be in 20. degr. of Aries: Mars in 15 of Aries, and Mercury in 16 of Aries; here

Mercury being a swift Planet seperates from Mars, and the vertue of Mars unto Saturn. Its done also as well by any Aspect as by Conjunction."

Mars is not heavier than Jupiter. So this definition doesn't hold.

You are misinterpreting Lilly's meaning. In his example, Mercury is lighter than either Mars or Saturn and the comparator to another more heavy (planet) relates to Mercury. As long as Mercury is lighter than the other two, it doesn't matter which it aspects first, as long as the aspects are sequential.

Thus the Moon being lighter than either Jupiter or Mars aspects first a more weighty planet (compared to itself) and then aspects a more heavy planet (compared to itself), Mars.

RohanMenon said:
Bonification is not defined by Lilly as far as I can see from the book, which is a bit surprising, since he generally works bottom up in a very precise manner, so this confused me a bit

So the concept seems to be that, the trine to Jupiter bonifies the Moon who then 'translates' this effect to the next aspect it forms - an opposition to Mars. Would it then be valid to say that Mars de-bonifies (corrupts? I don't know the exact terminology) the Moon which then translates this malefic aspect to the next aspect it forms?

Bonification is a modern term, though I've come across it from a Hellenistic point of view. In a Horary context, which Lilly is talking about here, the matter would end with the Moon's aspect to Mars.

in a natal context, the Moon's succesive aspects would rarely be considered.but a benefic applying to another planet would bonify it, especially by sextile or trine. A malefic applying by square or opposition would tend maltreat or corrupt, especially if the aspect was cast in the order of signs.
 

RohanMenon

so it *is* translation of light then

" As long as Mercury is lighter than the other two, it doesn't matter which it aspects first, as long as the aspects are sequential.

Thus the Moon being lighter than either Jupiter or Mars aspects first a more weighty planet (compared to itself) and then aspects a more heavy planet (compared to itself), Mars."

ok then I read that wrong. Thanks for the correction. Greatly appreciated. As is the clarification on bonification in natal and horary contexts.
 

RohanMenon

Longevity judgment done. (phew)

ok finally we have an algorithm for how Lilly handles longevity questions. This is a mix of what he instructs us to do (before getting into a specific chart) and what he actually does, which is mindboggling in many ways. This is just *one* question of 4 or 5 that he answers for this chart.

For questions of longevity, "whether he live long yea or nay"

0. Look for considerations against judgment. (I personally use only VOC Moon for now)

1. List essential *and* accidental dignities, including aspects made, of the ascendant *point* *and* the Ruler of the Ascendant and the Moon. This is easily done by working through Lilly's chart and assigning a score. An extremely dignified LoA/Moon/Ascendant indicates good logevity, and badly dignified, the contrary, with intermediate results possible.
2. Make a list of hard aspects (including conjunction/bodily presence) the lords of the 6th, 8th, 12th make into the 1st house, and Lord of the Ascendant, and the Moon. (though Lilly ignores one such aspect present in this chart.)
3. Make a list of the aspects made by the Moon at least one before and one after the point of time the chart was cast for. Interpret.
4. Weigh the relative 'potency' of benefics against the malefics, decide which of the two pairs is stronger in the chart. (wow, this is new, I've never seen this anywhere)

I don't understand the "Sun above the Earth" criterion. Is Lilly using Sect?

In my next post, I'll apply to this procedure to a horary chart I made.

Next Lilly tackles the question of where the querent should live.

To what part of the Kingdom, he might best apply himself to live in

in modern English, where should he go to maximize success

Lilly takes the house position of the Lord of Ascendant, here Sun in 9th House, and concludes that the querent needs to take a long journey, that being one of the significances of the 9th house.

Essentially he takes London/the place of the horary chart to be 'the centre' and from there determines the direction of travel to be South East thus.
South because "the quarter of heaven where the Lord of the Ascendant is in is the South" . Lilly uses the Ascendant as the East, MC as South, DSC as West and IC as North. Here the position of the Sun is the 9th house which is arguable nearest the MC, so South
East because " because the sign where the Sun is in the East" - this seems to be because Aries (the Sun is in 4 Aries) is associated with the East

So first, house then sign - so South then East, so South East.

Then he looks for various cities and towns that fall under Aries. I don't think this works for modern cities (maybe countries. India is supposed to be Capricornian somehow),and in these days of globe spanning airlines, judging where a querent should land up is probably too tough so I'll skip this bit. Just noting the technique aspects here.

also the Sun (lord of the ascendant) is 2 degrees (ish) distant from the 9th house cusp, and so "He departed two months hence ( calculated from the present moment?)". Not sure what the general principle is, here.
 

RohanMenon

Continuing with the first house horary.

This is where Lilly pulls off some incredible astrology.

Essentially, from the past and future aspects formed by the 1st House Lord, Lilly details events that have already happened to the querent, and events yet to come. (Fwiw I've never seen any modern astrologer even attempt to do this)

In the chart under discussion, the Lord of the Ascendant is the Sun. So Lilly looks up the immediately past aspects of the Sun and identifies this sequence of aspects [1]

(a) Sun conjunct Mars
(b) Sun square Saturn
(c) Sun sextile Jupiter.

From (a) Sun conjunct Mars --> Mars occupies the 8th house of the horary chart and rules the 4th . From this Lilly concludes that the querent had a fight (conjunct Mars) regarding his wife's property (8th house = 2nd of 7th [2]) and 4th (= Lands and property). In the horary chart, the Moon applies to an opposition with Mars, so this testimony is confirmed.

From (b) Saturn is the Ruler of th 7th and signifies the wife. Saturn is a Superior Planet in a fiery sign and retrograde, from which Lilly concludes that the querent's wife is a 'gallant spirited woman not willing to submit' (ha! Good for her!)

Saturn also rules the Part Of Fortune. So Lilly deduces that the querent had a fight (square) with his wife (7th) over her fortune (rulership of Part of Fortune).

From (c) - Jupiter is in the 10th, sextiles the Sun. The Sun (his significator) and Saturn (hers) are applying to a trine so Lilly deduces that some great Lawyer or Courtier (Jupiter in 10th) has endeavored to reconcile (trine aspect) between the querent (Sun) and his wife (Saturn).

Ok now my comments and questions:
(1) Is this true of all horary charts (and not just this 'generic first house' horary)?

Can the past and future aspects of the querent's significator reveal past and future events? I've noticed astrologers *sometimes* taking the *Moon's* immediate past and immediate future aspect (singular, not plural) but never building a connected series of events from the Ascendant Lord's aspects.

(2) Would one still do this if the First House Lord were Saturn? The previous aspect might lie well back in the past (and well forward in the future). The Sun is relatively fast moving.

(3) Does this 'past sequence of aspects predicts past sequence of events and future aspects future events' idea work only for First House Lord or for any other house Lord?

(4) If this is possible, shouldn't this be done for every horary chart? This would give excellent validation and improvement of technique over time. When did this drop out of the tradition?


Notes:

[1]Modern software (Solar Fire) gives a different sequence, but SF doesn't do moeity so that might explain the difference, I haven't checked.


12:08 February 28 Sun square Saturn
05:17 March 05, Sun conjunct Mercury
15:11 March 11, Sun opposes Moon
10:06 March 14, Sun sextile Jupiter
00:23 March 19, Sun conjunct Mars

[2] Sure the 8th is 2nd of 7th, but also 3d of 6th, 4th of 5th, and 6th of 4th. If the fact that Mars ruled 4th was the deciding factor, the 6th of 4th would be an equally valid deduction. So why not 6th of 4th? conflict with workers on land (say?)
 

Minderwiz

Some good questions, both for this and your Valens thread. It's going to be at least later this afternoon/evening or even tomorrow, before I can get round to answering them in detail.
 

RohanMenon

Minderwiz, *please* take your time

No hurry at all, and I don't want to pressure you in any way.

I know you are quite busy dealing with real world matters, and any answers from you, while **very **appreciated, since they **greatly** expand my understanding, are in no way expected from you in a given time frame.

Whenever you have the time is more than enough.

Cheers,
 

Minderwiz

No hurry at all, and I don't want to pressure you in any way.

I know you are quite busy dealing with real world matters, and any answers from you, while **very **appreciated, since they **greatly** expand my understanding, are in no way expected from you in a given time frame.

Whenever you have the time is more than enough.

Cheers,

I enjoy replying! It takes my mind off other things LOL.