Feelings about printing out of print decks?

lilylilac

As a fellow Homestuck fan :cool3:, I noticed that for a while a few years ago it said Sold Out, but in late 2014 it was back in stock again at $20. So maybe...
I'd click "notify me when it's back in stock" on the welovefine page, if you haven't already.

Hello again! It's nice to see you!
Yes, I'm still looking for a Homestuck deck. You're post is very encouraging! Thankyou!
 

Achlys

I'm fairly certain that's copyright infringement.

Personally, I wouldn't do it. It's kind of like stealing an artist's work since they're not being compensated for it and you didn't create it.
 

Grizabella

For about $10 on Amazon you can buy blank 78-card Tarot decks. I think it would be awesome to make your own, one-of-a-kind deck. You could be sure it would speak volumes to you because you created it yourself. In fact, Gabi Angus-West talks about her Bonefire deck in the book that comes with it and she created it for herself at first, if I understand it right, and it all began with creating a painting for friends of hers who were getting married. That card eventually became the Lovers card in the deck.

Anyway, take a look on Amazon if you're interested in blank Tarot deck stock.
 

EmpyreanKnight

I think that if the resolution of the images is high enough and the materials you use for printing them (from the paper used to the cutter to the printer itself - your trusty home color printer just won't cut it) are premier, it's possible to create a high-quality copy of a deck.

That said, I have never tried it before, though this thread just gave me an idea. There are swarms of consistent-quality deck images hovering around the web if you're resourceful enough, but I won't recommend them because that's just plain wrong. That said, there are a few decks that have been given a free imprimatur by their creator. Might as well use them if they appeal to you.
 

gregory

I think it's nasty and tacky to be honest (well you did ask :D).

If I went to a reader and they had fuzzy home-printed cards to read from, I wouldn't be impressed. There is of course the whole copyright thing, but just in terms of - like - your tools - it would be like going to the dentist and seeing taped-together home-made pliers. Not something that would inspire confidence in me to be honest.
Copyright. Without the artist's permission - I wouldn't do it. And I CAN do it well - I have had the artist's permission for three I have done. AND because I had their permission - they supplied decent files to do it from.

But without that - it's just wrong.
 

Beanfeasa

Speaking as someone who has worked 12 years in the printing trade, if you approached me with this project, I'd say no.
Absolutely no way would I lose my job for 78 screenshots.

Even if you had the PDFs of the CBD which is free for personal use, I'd question would you be using them for readings for clients, that falls under commercial use so again, I would turn you away until we checked if it was ok.
 

Carojulie

I find this discussion very interesting.

Personnaly, I would not be comfortable with the copyright aspects - though I am by no mean a specialist on the subject of copyright.

If the artist gave permission, that would be totally different ! Then I would do it without thinking twice.

I have heard several tarot artists say that they refrain from putting images of their deck online, for fear of piracy, and I totaly understand them.

I have encountered an obviously pirated deck for sale on the internet once : a first edition Wild Unknown from a seller in Ukraine, not very expensive.
I had the second edition at the time, and wanted the first because I liked a few of the images better, but the first was becoming hard to get.
When I found this Ukraine seller, I thought I was being lucky and bought the deck ; but when it arrived and I compared it with my second edition (genuine this one) I saw how obvious it was that this "first edition" was pirated. Small tuckbox, smaller cards, thinner cardstock, and several cards severely misprinted.
I complained to the seller about the misprinted cards and they sent me another deck, better done, larger cards, better quality print, but still a copied deck (obvious from the box and the cardstock) and soon after that they disapeared from internet (of course !). The fact that I suspect the deck was pirated put me severely off of it. Its feels like stolen good for me.
I have since bought a genuine version of the WU 1st edition from another seller (actually two decks, but that is another story)

If I were the artist of this deck, this sort of robbery would enrage me !

But I can see why someone would wonder about doing it for their personal use with an OOP deck.

We are all aware that copying a moovie out of a streaming site on internet is definitively copyright infrigment.
But, if the moovie is impossible to find, very old and rare, has not been released on dvd, and is never broadcasted by tv chanels.... and a faraway friend has a copy of the moovie and offers to make a copy for you, just for your personal enjoyment, not for selling of making money from ?
Well, I would accept the copy of the moovie, and I would be grateful to the friend.
I sense that a very difficult to find OOP deck would trigger the same reaction, wouldn't it ?

I am not saying I find it justified to do it, I am merely saying I would be tempted and I understand someone who is tempted.

On a very practical side, I fear that finding all 78 images on the net to work with would be challenging (it seems to me that when you search Google image for a deck, you often find the majors plus the same 5 or 10 samples for the minors, but rarely all cards. It makes total sense from an artist point of view to try to avoid exposing all cards of their decks online)
And, it would be very costly to print it at home (one should have a printing machine that would accept to be fed decent cardstock, and the amount of ink needed would make the process quite expensive)

I have myself scanned all the cards of a deck I own : the Tarot of Trees.
The reason I did that is because the cardstock of the deck is so bad, that I would really like to have the same images on better cardstock. So, I scanned my cards, thinking that at one point I will maybe print them myself on better cardstock, and cut the cards one by one with a pair of cissors and a corner-rounder.

When I scanned the cards, I gave a lot of thoughts to copyright, and decided that as I have bought the deck from the artist in the first place, and as I would only use such a copy for myself and never give professional readings with it, it would be ok. Also I was a little pissed off by the bad cardstock on the copy I bought.
As I said earlier, I am absolutely not an expert on copyright laws - I just give the feelings my concience gives me here - I am not pretending to be right.
In France, for a start, while copying something for your personal use is not an excuse, it seems however that you can make photocopies of a book for your personal use, if you also own a genuine copy of the book (music schools are often searched for illegal photocopies, and the agents search the students bags. If you have photocopies and can prove you own a copy of the original score, or have ordered it from the store prior to the search and have not received it yet, you are ok. If you do not own the original, the fine is enormous. Often, for exams, the program is anounced 4 weeks in advance, and students order the scores form the net, and start working on photocopies from the library while waiting for their copy to arrive - keeping with them the receipt of their order in case of a search)

Anyway, I have not printed my Tarot of the Trees scans yet, first because my printing machine will only accept thin "office quality" paper, and because color ink is so expensive.... so first I would have to buy stocks of ink, then find someone with a very good printing machine that I could use.... well, the whole process is a lot of fuss.
For the moment the scans I made from the cards, are sleeping in a file on my husband's PC, and it goes without saying that I will NEVER give them and even less sell them.

I would much prefer if the artist made an other edition of this Tarot of Trees on better cardstock ; then I will prefer to buy this new edition from her rather than print my scans, no questions on that (easier and probably cheaper in the end)
 

Onaorkal

I don't think I would be comfortable doing it without the artist's consent.
Of course one could say that the artist is not losing money if the deck is OOP and will stay OOP for sure, but it's their art so they have all rights about it.

In the end it depends how you judge if something is "good or bad". If it's in the intention or the consequences! In this case I would consider the intentions to be bad, since art is being 'stolen', but there are no real consequences for the artist. (No loss of money)

Apart from the ethical aspect, as some people pointed out, making a homemade deck out of scans or screenshots probably won't give a result aesthetically good enough to enjoy using the cards imo. So OOP or not I don't think I would bother trying it for any deck!
 

Maru

It breaks copyright. Unless the copyright owner is long dead and we're talking about way in the future here.
 

Carojulie

I have just spent some time on the web researching the subject of copyright.
I am not a lawyer and no specialist at all, but I found a few things worth taking into account :

- hairy subject with laws that differ from country to country (that I knew already...)
- Notion of fair use seems to be rather well known in many countries, and factors include, among others : reasonable portion, purpose and character of the use, and effect the use has upon the market for the copyrighted
- In some countries, some specific actions that are not clearly authorised by the law due to lack of detail in said law, will be tolerated under fair use principles- lots of stuff concerning personal use, and OOP material here (more room to play within than I originaly thought - providing you are not making a copy of an available item just to avoid buying a legitimate copy)

So once again I am NOT a specialist, and will be glad if someone more knowledgeable comes to correct me, but here is what I THINK I understood, more or less :

- many countries will tolerate the copy of more than a reasonable portion, including the whole item, of out of print material for personal use, providing you can prove the material is OOP, you keep a record of inquiries (I am not sure I understand that last part very well, but english native speakers will probably do). Also stay within reasonable limits (dont make more copies than you need for personal use)

- many countries will tolerate the duplication of the whole item of material that you have bought a legitimate copy of, for your personal use only, in order to render the material more accessible to yourself (print it larger if you have bad eyes maybe, or put music on your mp3 to make it portable), or to have a back up copy, should the original be stolen or damaged or rendered useless in one way or another (that seems to click with what I know of France regulation of copies of music scores, like I said in my earlier message - I assume it can be extanded to material other than music scores). Proof of ownership of the legitimate copy can come in handy (receipt...)

- under "reasonable portion" I would understand that it might b OK to duplicate part of one card from a deck, for your personal use like decorating a tarot pouch that you make for yourself and that you do not intend to make money from. I am not so sure of this one though, and in doubt I do not recomand it.

- when possible, asking permission first to the copyright owner, will always render things easier and will be considered good practice / remember that not only the authors might have rights on their material, but the editors also, and in some case that can mean an awful lot of people to ask permission to.

PLEASE do not take for granted everything I wrote here. Again I AM NOT A SPECIALIST and I am only sharing info I just read, and think I more or less understood, because I think you might have an interest. Please keep in mind these are just my personal conclusions of what I read, and I did not read everything, and I might have misunderstood stuff. Please correct me if you are a specialist of the question.
If you are no specialist, like most of us here I suppose, I urge you to make your own researchs and own conclusions.
And I am interested in your views !

Thank you :)