At last! Upright vs. Reversed for Hadar, Camoin and Grimaud

I finally decided today to see if all of my minor arcana cards are in my little viewing albums (for the Hadar, the Camoin and the Grimaud) in the Upright position.

Carol Sedillot had color pictures of the Grimaud Minors, so that was easy to set up.

Jodorowsky had the Minors grouped in fours in the upright positions, so that wasn't too difficult.

The Hadar was the tricky one. I finally found Hadar's "upright" descriptions on pp. 286-288 of his book
Mon Premier Livre de Tarot.

Hadar has, in general blue toward the top(heavens) and red towards bottom (earth) except.....

In the Deniers, it wasn't difficult, since all of the five-pointed flowers in the Deniers he drew with the three petals on the top, so that does reverse some of the top/bottom red vs. blue, but he indicates that he NEVER reversed the five-pointed flower in his designs of the denier.

Now, in the Bastons, it is the point of the leave which indicates whether the card is upright or reversed. The blue points of the leaves are ALWAYS to the right AND on top and the red points of the leaves are ALWAYS on the left AND on the bottom.

(He then gives a description of each card to be sure that one has the Upright position as he intended).

The Swords on the other hand have some exceptions.
The point in the odd numbered cards is ALWAYS up, placing the "bow" or "bend" to the right as one views the card. As for the others, the colors are REVERSED, the bend in the sword is blue to the left and red to the right (as one views the card).

The cups of course, have no explanation. A cup is a cup and as such sits on its base.

My friend and I were having a lengthy discussion about it not making a difference since one reads in the moment.

I do, especially with the colors, since the colors, e.g. in the Camoin and the Hadar vary so much.

Now that I have at least these three decks sorted, I felt good about having them sitting in my albums in the upright position.

Hadar was the most confusing at first, but once one has his 5-pointed flower with three petals always at the top, it becomes easier.

Don't know if there is any value in having posted this. (LOL)

It just felt good, since I wasn't "sure" what the deck creator intended for some of the cards ....

How I read them is another story.

If anyone has a desire to see Upright for any of the cards from these three decks, I will try to scan the card in, in its upright position.


terri

How Camoin and Hadar interpret the minors?

Well, that's a whole other story.....

Well, I personally find some value to this post! Not really long ago I got my first deck, which happened to be a Kris Hadar's. I didn't get them new, let alone out of a box, and I didn't really know anything about Tarot, so I placed the cards in a numerical order and that was it. Later I read about reversed cards. Major Arcana didn't show any problems... cards go upright and that's it. But what about the minors? I swear I lost count of how much time I spent staring at some cards - specially Coins, Wands, and some of the Swords - trying to figure out how was I supposed to know which was upright or reversed. Now your post throws a bit of light on this little head of mine, and I think that now I can arrange my deck properly.

However, I'd like to see your 7 and 10 of Bastons (Hadar) in upright position. I'm sort of getting lost with them


Thank you. Your post was rather informative for this silly boy

Thank you indeed tmgrl2.

Though this is a topic that has on numerous times been mentioned, it is always useful to also have some of the thoughts of various designers and authors as to what constitutes upright with especially regards to swords.

I have also, on various occasions, that I tend to generally view more often than not the uprightness of swords according to the point being upwards, and that its pointing down is 'reversed'. Of course, in terms of readings, it is more the on-the-spot-&-spur moment that determines whether it echoes of uprightness or reverseness - or, rather more aptly, whether it reflects meaning in whatever particular way one sees in the moment itself.

If I have somewhat altered my personal position over the past few years, it is on two points - one is on what is likely to be considered upright with the swords not girdled by a hand.

It seems to me that it is more our modern eyes that sees in the downward pointing sword a reversal. I suspect that in the context of earlier times, with swords being as common as guns may these days be, the reverse would be held as upright: the cruciform being an important determinant.

Hence also why I have lately more often than not attached sword cards with their hilts upwards.

Cups remain, then, the only suit that display unequivocally an upright sense, irrespective of times... though even here one could argue that emptying cups are 'upright' (I would not dare suggest it, however )

Doh! Just had to reverse all of my batons ...

When I got my Hadar deck, brand new and shrink wrapped, the first thing I did was to record in my journal which way was up (assuming of course that they were all packaged up the right way). I am pleased to know that all of the deniers, and swords were as I thought but the batons were all wrong. Now I have turned them, they don't FEEL right , I hope I will get used to them.

Thanks anyway terri, its good to know what was originally intended

~

damfino...here are the two cards you wanted....

Hadar draws all these little diagrams to make it clear what he considers les pointes versus [les fleures.

My deck has a bunch turned around until I figured he must have it somewhere in his book.

Now if only someone can help me with my Cary-Yale Visconti and Pierpont-Morgan Visconti (I do have the LWBs to help)...I'm not even sure of some of the trumps on these two large decks!

terri

jmd said:

Thank you indeed tmgrl2.

Though this is a topic that has on numerous times been mentioned, it is always useful to also have some of the thoughts of various designers and authors as to what constitutes upright with especially regards to swords.

I have also, on various occasions, that I tend to generally view more often than not the uprightness of swords according to the point being upwards, and that its pointing down is 'reversed'. Of course, in terms of readings, it is more the on-the-spot-&-spur moment that determines whether it echoes of uprightness or reverseness - or, rather more aptly, whether it reflects meaning in whatever particular way one sees in the moment itself.

If I have somewhat altered my personal position over the past few years, it is on two points - one is on what is likely to be considered upright with the swords not girdled by a hand.

It seems to me that it is more our modern eyes that sees in the downward pointing sword a reversal. I suspect that in the context of earlier times, with swords being as common as guns may these days be, the reverse would be held as upright: the cruciform being an important determinant.

Hence also why I have lately more often than not attached sword cards with their hilts upwards.

Cups remain, then, the only suit that display unequivocally an upright sense, irrespective of times... though even here one could argue that emptying cups are 'upright' (I would not dare suggest it, however )

Click to expand...

Good point about swords and what may constitute a more "modern" way of viewing the card.

Last night my friend kept discussing with me how we could "read" the card no matter which way was "upright."
We were laughing hysterically by the end of the conversation, since I WAS agreeing with her...I do read the card as I see it in the spread...I would never have known Hadar's intent, but from what I know of him already, and his attentions to detail, I figured he certainly would have explained the cards SOMEWHERE in his book.

I'll take the cups in the emptying position! Actually, I do read with my Hadar...have my first client coming Friday to my home office! I usually set the Trumps upright so we can both look at the card...but sometimes, I leave the minor cards, even the cups upside down if that's how they appear. It depends on my "mood" of the moment.

My friend, Mary, said she was so intrigued with your visual on the swords lined up forming circles, that she tried it with Bastons and didn't get any results of patterning.

It has really been through your encouragement, jmd, that I have wanted to learn about the TdM from both "ends,"
meaning, I do like to study origins, iconology, artist's intent and interpretations. Then, ultimately, as you have often said, I read the cards as I "sees 'em."

terri

Jewel-ry said:

Doh! Just had to reverse all of my batons ...

When I got my Hadar deck, brand new and shrink wrapped, the first thing I did was to record in my journal which way was up (assuming of course that they were all packaged up the right way). I am pleased to know that all of the deniers, and swords were as I thought but the batons were all wrong. Now I have turned them, they don't FEEL right , I hope I will get used to them.

Thanks anyway terri, its good to know what was originally intended

~

Click to expand...

You're welcom, Jewel...I did the same thing, unwrapped and stuck one deck in an album since I assumed they were all upright. Actually they were wrapped out of number sequency anyhow, as many decks often are.

Hadar's descriptions are pretty clear. He gives an overall description of location for blues and reds, but then indicateds how even that changes for him within suits.
The deniers really had me stumped, until I read that he had all the flowers with five petals so that the three were on top.

I think you were the first one here, Jewel, to notice and count the numbers of petals on his deniers and variations within the suit.

terri

Thanks terri

I'm pleased to hear that I had my Hadar the correct way round.... but I have to admit that it was only since getting the Heron Conver, then I went through my other decks and made sure they were all the same.

Although, I think you can get a feel for what seems the correct way up and if it feels right - then why not go with it.

jmd said:

It seems to me that it is more our modern eyes that sees in the downward pointing sword a reversal. I suspect that in the context of earlier times, with swords being as common as guns may these days be, the reverse would be held as upright: the cruciform being an important determinant.

Hence also why I have lately more often than not attached sword cards with their hilts upwards.

Click to expand...

Indeed, there were two positions of the (real) sword which faced downwards: when in its scabbard - sword sheathed, not so dangerous! - and when a knight was swearing fealty to his lord (he knelt, sword unsheathed hilt upwards like a cross), while the lord dubbed him (either to knight him, or to receive the fealty of a knight whose former lord had died or proved himself unworthy, a traitor). Neither of these sword position would be considered "upside down" in real life, though they are not the position for fighting.

One might also consider the sword on its side as when a blacksmith is resting it on an anvil and beating it.

Moonbow* said:

Thanks terri

I'm pleased to hear that I had my Hadar the correct way round.... but I have to admit that it was only since getting the Heron Conver, then I went through my other decks and made sure they were all the same.

Although, I think you can get a feel for what seems the correct way up and if it feels right - then why not go with

it.

Click to expand...

For most cards I could tell upright, but once I "decoded" Hadar's intent, I just wanted to set my cards up that way.

Again, I don't worry about this when I read...This was an exercise I did for myself re: artist's intent, not necessarily a concern when I read.

I just wanted to share it, once I had done it.

terri