Fulgour
This card is not a historical depiction of anything.
This card is not an historical depiction of anything.kwaw said:
The Hanged Man... death of a Jew in Christian lands?
jmd
Fulgour, that is plain unhysterical 
I do take it that there are no depicted dogs on the Marseille (or other) cards of Le Pendu... however, if the depiction - or worse, the actual act, occured with even a minimum amount of regularity (which posted images at least suggests), then it would have been a living presence in the minds of the many European Jewish communities, and especially those who may have lead a Jewish life in hiding (the 'Crypto-Jews').
In a similar manner that the Pances/Papess, if depicting the Annunciation, does not need to depict the Angelic presence towards which she faces, nor does the Hanged Man need to depict the whole scene.
Also, as pointed out, the images so far seen are either of single leg hangings, or of both legs with 'companion' dog.
Personally, I suspect the dogs are as or more likely to have been strays used for the occasion than dogs used for protection or work by the community.
In terms of the iconography settled on, it also makes more sense, from a woodcarver's perceptive as well as from more symbolic considerations, to have the single leg without the redundant (and brutally repugnant) dog shown.
I do take it that there are no depicted dogs on the Marseille (or other) cards of Le Pendu... however, if the depiction - or worse, the actual act, occured with even a minimum amount of regularity (which posted images at least suggests), then it would have been a living presence in the minds of the many European Jewish communities, and especially those who may have lead a Jewish life in hiding (the 'Crypto-Jews').
In a similar manner that the Pances/Papess, if depicting the Annunciation, does not need to depict the Angelic presence towards which she faces, nor does the Hanged Man need to depict the whole scene.
Also, as pointed out, the images so far seen are either of single leg hangings, or of both legs with 'companion' dog.
Personally, I suspect the dogs are as or more likely to have been strays used for the occasion than dogs used for protection or work by the community.
In terms of the iconography settled on, it also makes more sense, from a woodcarver's perceptive as well as from more symbolic considerations, to have the single leg without the redundant (and brutally repugnant) dog shown.
Fulgour
If the idea is to coerce the image along the lines of atrocity,
and to do so for the sake of attempting a politically correct
iconography, and thus foster an admission of collective guilt
among all of us here, even those who are sympathetic souls,
then proceed: have The Hanged Man brand humankind guilty.
But to argue I have to accept the Tarot as whatever another
says it is, or be guilty of insensitivity or even racial prejudice,
then I'm going to say no. XII Le Pendu is a hero, not a victim.
and to do so for the sake of attempting a politically correct
iconography, and thus foster an admission of collective guilt
among all of us here, even those who are sympathetic souls,
then proceed: have The Hanged Man brand humankind guilty.
But to argue I have to accept the Tarot as whatever another
says it is, or be guilty of insensitivity or even racial prejudice,
then I'm going to say no. XII Le Pendu is a hero, not a victim.
Sophie
Fulgour, there is no coercion involved on the part of jmd: to hang someone upside down is one of the worse forms of torture/executions known to man - and certainly one of the worse I have had to deal with. Someone once told me what exactly happened to his body when he was tortured in that manner (mercifully he escaped death). I shan't repeat it, it's too horrible.
But you are right with Le Pendu being a hero: he is a hero because with his mind he resists persecution, and rises above it. He does not allow himself to be a victim. It's a gift given to very few, believe me!
In a way he represents all those put in difficult situations not of their choosing, victims of prejudice or circumstance, and who manage, through the force of their minds, to resist, to wait for it to pass, to conquer first themselves, then the persecutor or circumstance (even if they die doing so, it is still a victory).
Anne Frank in her attic, a modern Jew in Christian lands, was something of a Pendu (e).
But you are right with Le Pendu being a hero: he is a hero because with his mind he resists persecution, and rises above it. He does not allow himself to be a victim. It's a gift given to very few, believe me!
In a way he represents all those put in difficult situations not of their choosing, victims of prejudice or circumstance, and who manage, through the force of their minds, to resist, to wait for it to pass, to conquer first themselves, then the persecutor or circumstance (even if they die doing so, it is still a victory).
Anne Frank in her attic, a modern Jew in Christian lands, was something of a Pendu (e).
Fulgour
Tarot
Letter 12 Lamedh
"To Teach"
"A Devoted Pupil"
What am I missing?
Letter 12 Lamedh
"To Teach"
"A Devoted Pupil"
What am I missing?
Fulgour
I did not mention jmd and actually did not address my remarksHelvetica said:
to him. Michael J. Hurst is who I meant. Do you know of him?
His website may be tidy but beware of peeking under the rugs.
Sophie
Is Michael Hurst taking part in this discussion? Have I missed something?
I like his website, but like everything associated with Tarot (or actualoly with everything I happen to study) I read, listen, learn but balance it with other elements and approach the whole thing with le scepticisme de Montaigne.
However, there are certain truths that are not only possible historically, but sound right poetically, too.
Anne Frank was a most apt pupil of life. And through her diary, has become a great teacher of life, though she never saw her 17th birthday.
I like his website, but like everything associated with Tarot (or actualoly with everything I happen to study) I read, listen, learn but balance it with other elements and approach the whole thing with le scepticisme de Montaigne.
However, there are certain truths that are not only possible historically, but sound right poetically, too.
Anne Frank was a most apt pupil of life. And through her diary, has become a great teacher of life, though she never saw her 17th birthday.
Parzival
The Hanged Man...
Let me express appreciation for the directness and courage in this statement. It's a question to me of how historically speculative we want to go, or how much we keep face-to-face with the Image that calls for present communion/interpretation. My limited understanding tells me that "Le Pendu" originates in 15th century Italian Tarocchi, as a "Traitor." In fact, in the Minchiate, its very title is "Traitor." Thus, the original intention is that of someone who significantly breaks the civil law/s and receives maximum punishment. By association in southern France, this may extend to refer to the horrific plight of the Jews. Also, it may refer by association to the "miserables", those down-and-out revolutionaries who tried to overthrow the regime in the 1700s. ( Symbolically expanded, it is Osiris, Prometheus, Socrates, Odin, Christ, Bruno, Lincoln, suffragettes, Gandhi, King with all unknown protesters --- all the suffering and martyred liberators of humanity.)
Ultimately, though, a Tarot Image has a historic background like a poem, such as a haiku or sonnet, while saying, " Here I am, face-to-face with you, now, trying to reveal who you are by revealing who I am." --- "Reverse your values, and learn to live."
Fulgour said:
Let me express appreciation for the directness and courage in this statement. It's a question to me of how historically speculative we want to go, or how much we keep face-to-face with the Image that calls for present communion/interpretation. My limited understanding tells me that "Le Pendu" originates in 15th century Italian Tarocchi, as a "Traitor." In fact, in the Minchiate, its very title is "Traitor." Thus, the original intention is that of someone who significantly breaks the civil law/s and receives maximum punishment. By association in southern France, this may extend to refer to the horrific plight of the Jews. Also, it may refer by association to the "miserables", those down-and-out revolutionaries who tried to overthrow the regime in the 1700s. ( Symbolically expanded, it is Osiris, Prometheus, Socrates, Odin, Christ, Bruno, Lincoln, suffragettes, Gandhi, King with all unknown protesters --- all the suffering and martyred liberators of humanity.)
Ultimately, though, a Tarot Image has a historic background like a poem, such as a haiku or sonnet, while saying, " Here I am, face-to-face with you, now, trying to reveal who you are by revealing who I am." --- "Reverse your values, and learn to live."
Rosanne
Wonderful post Frank Hall. It put it all in perspective for me- the historical research and the use of Tarot as a tool for life. I tend to get lost in all the little tidbits and forget the main feast lying there in front of me. I will still enjoy the speculation and new lines of thought, for that is the nature of me; I am constantly grateful for all the expertise and willingness to share, my world gets wider and deeper here at AT.~Rosanne
Sophie
Rosanne - they all interlink. And Frank - thanks for reminding us of that! And Fulgour - thanks for being so damn contrary
