How to appreciate Crowley?

Greg Stanton said:

Just to be clear -- the bulk of my studies were GD, which nowadays seems to mixed up an awful lot with Crowley, and my focus was ceremonial magic. On top of that, the New Age approach to magic, using GD and Crowley as a source, virtually guarantees failure. That is my point.

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Welll that IS a lot clearer now. I didnt realise THAT is what you saying before.

So your bulk was GD and not OTO ... okay, that's clear now. And no, not many people are confusing AC with GD unless they actually know F.A. about the basics of the subject. And you focus was ceremonial magic (not OTO, Thelema Crowley OR magicK ... okay. ( but hmmmm).

I'm sure we all agree with your last sentance. HEAR! HEAR! A pity you didnt make those points as clear at the begining!

Nevada said:

I suspect there are a lot of people on Aeclectic who use the Thoth deck but don't necessarily agree with Crowley, and who, even if they've read a smattering of his writings, don't consider themselves his advocates.

Might make an interesting poll, if one hasn't been done before.

Nevada

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Thanks for the reply Nevada.....I sure feel like I'm getting in the way of an argument around here at the moment!!! I think a poll would be a great idea, but I'm not sure how I'd go about starting it, or if I'm the right person to do so. It's certainly a hot topic for some

sapienza said:

ETA- The reason I'm posting this question is that after reading through this thread, I'm starting to feel that it would be 'wrong' or 'looked down on' to just use this deck without becoming a Crowley devotee

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I've not gotten the impression of anyone thinking that its wrong to use the deck without incorporating Crowley's philosophy. Probably the majority of Thoth users know little about Thelema, and mostly gossip about Crowley. In letters to Harris, Crowley did specify a requirement for having the final product sold in a deck/book set so people would understand the deck as he intended it and not use it for "common fortune telling" (not sure what his exact words were). Much the same opinion as the other deck creators of the time (Waite being the prime example) and a pretty preditable opinion for an author with Leo rising.

The deck was created as an illustration of the principles of Thelema. Without having an understanding of them, I think its difficult to understand a lot of the features of the artwork. For that reason my personal opinion is that its preferrable to have some understanding of the philosophy behind that deck. That will explain (for example) what a dove and serpent refer to, and why they are present on the Heirophant and Tower cards, and what they mean in the context of those cards (to Crowley at least). Of course if you're interested in a deck for purely reading purposes, then perhaps that doesn't matter so much and any symbol will mean what it does in the context of the reading/question and your experience as a reader.

If I can pick an example relevant to conversations we've had before Sapienza, its kind of like reading the Alchemical deck without having an understanding of Alchemy and Place's intent in the symbols. It's possible and fine to do that, but the experienced is often enriched from combining the two. That doesn't mean you need to take Thelema on board as your new personal creed or religion, or rush to join an association. But some understanding of it is useful in better understanding the deck.

sapienza said:

Thanks for the reply Nevada.....I sure feel like I'm getting in the way of an argument around here at the moment!!! I think a poll would be a great idea, but I'm not sure how I'd go about starting it, or if I'm the right person to do so. It's certainly a hot topic for some

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I'm curious too, so I created a poll, here: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=106393

Nevada

I appreciate your post similia. I guess the reason I was feeling that it may be 'wrong' to use the deck without incorporating Crowley's philosophy is because, being so new to it, I have a fairly limited knowledge thus far. I've read DuQuettes book and feel like I have a fair understanding of the basic ideas of Thelema and how this deck illustrates that. I was starting to wonder if that was enough, of if I'd be just a fraud if I didn't get much deeper into Crowley's ideas. I'm not even sure that makes sense! I thank you for your example re the Alchemical though, that makes a lot of sense. To be truthful, I'm intrigued by Crowley, and I'm enjoying working with this deck a great deal. For me, for now, that's enough

Nevada said:

I'm curious too, so I created a poll, here: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=106393

Nevada

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Excellent! It will be interesting to see the results.

To add my uninformed opinion - far too late: Much of Crowley's rhetoric in the Book of Thoth is, to me, just plain anti-Victorian, and therefore very much of its time (not too far removed from Virginia Woolf's idea of killing the 'angel in the house'). But I don't think any of this discredits the deck. The Bible is plainly anti-gay (and anti all sorts of other things), but that hasn't stopped gay people from practising their faith, nor does it seem to discredit the spiritual value of other parts of the Bible.

BrightEye said:

To add my uninformed opinion - far too late: Much of Crowley's rhetoric in the Book of Thoth is, to me, just plain anti-Victorian, and therefore very much of its time (not too far removed from Virginia Woolf's idea of killing the 'angel in the house'). But I don't think any of this discredits the deck.

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Well, one of the mistakes that I made was trying to consider the Book Of Thoth as a stand-alone piece of work to explain the cards. I later realised that it was a part of a very large library of Crowley's writings. The more that I dug, the more fascinated I became. I'm still working my way through Crowley's books for the first time and it will probably take me the rest of my life. But I don't consider it to be energy wasted, unlike poor old Greg who spent 20 years on occult study before he realised he was a failed magician. It's all a question of expectations. Glad that Ravenest arrived to add more weight to Aeon's debate with Greg.

Chriske,

Well, I think that realizing Crowley was a failed magician had just as much to do with my maturity as a person as with having to re-evaluate the value of Esotericism and the Golden Dawn in general. Though I could have abandoned my studies altogether, I luckily found other paths toward the ends which I sought.

Although I have personally come to the conclusion that GD and Crowley were a waste of time for ME, there seem to be plenty of people who find value in both. Crowley's own book on his tarot is one of his more readable, but Lon Milo DuQuette's book on the Thoth tarot should cut out a lot of study for you if what you are after is a greater understanding of the Thoth tarot itself, and not Thelema and everything that comes with it.

PLEASE don't refer to me as "poor old Greg." Every one of us is on a truth-seeking journey. At some point all of us will find that we must shift our paradigms. Events will occur that will shake some fundamental beliefs we hold dear -- this is a part of life, and how we adjust to reality. It is the sort of thing that makes us grow as human beings. This will happen to you, perhaps over other matters. I guarantee you will be better for it.

Perhaps, in this sense, it wasn't a waste of time at all. Just a part of a trip that I remember fondly, but which ultimately disappointed.

Moderating Note

Hi everyone,

I think we've moved a long way away from the topic of this thread/forum, which is ultimately about studying Crowley and his work, especially the Thoth Tarot.

We've discussed this as moderating group with Solandia, and have decided that its in the best interest of the many specialist forums on AT to stick to the topic, rather then getting caught in debating its merits. The Thoth forum subsequently is a place to discuss the Thoth tarot and the related material of Crowley's for people of any level of experience who wish to do so. Whether Crowley's work or tarot is a worthwhile topic to pursue or not is a conversation better suited to the general areas of AT, rather then this specialist section.

With that in mind, lets continue discussing the topic of the thread, which is how users of the Thoth deck, view its relationship to Crowley's controversial reputation.

Regards
Simila