forgiveness and its purpose

(edited to put in forum.)
hello
In another forum we discussed a man of disastardly deeds unequaled in the modern world. hitler.
and this idea of forgiving him has to be applied to every wrong deeds, ie.
ben laden, sadam.
but the idea is not to save them,,
there is nothing to save them from as there is no hell.
(or so the common lightworker believe, and many angels message says that )

yet if there is nothing to save,, why forgive at all ?
to overcome the seperation to stop disunity.
if one cannot overcome all seperation in this world they will not be able to come from love and master life.

I play world of warcraft and play on a pvp server and so i get ganked a lot.
ganked means group killed or killed over and over .
many nights i sit there in anger for being killed although it is just a game.
and i have to remind myself let go of anger and forgive.
that is just an example of how human i am.
and not sitting here preaching hyprocytal for that is what I am and so by admitting to the hyprocsy I am not here to preach but share.

in looking at the studies of forgiveness, course in miracles, angel messages by kim o niel who said in that book.
"where would you have hitler go" . (it is examined in great detail in that book )
to the idea that hitler was in heaven.
the idea of bad behavior is in that book as well..
the angels compared the holocraust to the author wanting to run over her ex husband with a car.

and that brings us to the idea that there is no levels, all things must be forgiven or not at all.
doesn't that sound extremist ?
I thought so when i examined these ideas.
i found it hard to believe that hitting my brother was equal to such an act. (that hasnt' happend in a year,)
that wanting to hurt a person who argued with me was equal to that.
that getting angry for a person thinks they are better then me,
yet what does forgivness do ?

i forgive someone the beginner idea is i am forgiving them karma, i am forgiving them their tranpasses, that i become more loving in doing so..
but they dont' need to be forgiven not in the loving creator eyes.
so then why forgive.
every idea points to the notion of stopping the seperation ..
forgiving overcomes the ego notion that their are levels, that there is classes, that there is differnces,
that we are not that person,, that the person is not our brother.
using hitler as an extreme example and coming from a spiritual point of view
that realizing he is our brother, a son of creator,, for there is no devil to give birth to him.
that we are hitler in some part of ourselves and that brings about fear.

to use it in a pratical sense,,
the person who beats me up, the person who crashed their car into a family and whiped them out..sounds extreme ..

but what about the non extreme stuff.
the person who was rude to us and wrecks our day for we refuse to forgive them and let it go.
to the person who says no simply because they can't but we think they want to stop us, or is against us.

i recall a time when i was asked to pray for someone as i was going into a sweat lodge and i said no,, you go in and pray for yourself.
at the time it came from revenge thoughts or judgements of course i was a teenager who was suffering from sleeping disorder and so was grouchy
but still
they said to me ,, your suppose to be loving and was hurt when i said that.
it never occured to me that it was too big a step at the time...
and by sharing love in a form of prayer for them would mean so much to them personally.
i guess bringing it up now shows i haven't forgiven myself for that small act.

so to the essence..
we first forgive ourselves in order to clear our minds.
then we forgive all and everything.
yet there is no logical step in this
one does not come first as there is no level of forgiveness

and so forgiving others does not save them in the sense they are freed from going to hell.
forgiving them shows that one realizes the brother, or sister in them.
that we are one with them..
and we are saving ourselves from our ego mind and thoughts.

yet for the person who isnt' used the idea..
until they are ready for the big stuff like the government, the world, their ideal of god,
to the person who hurt them, abandon them,

they should start with the small stuff.
the person on the bus who refuses to give up their seat.
the person who owes you money
the person who hates you the most,,
yourself.

for this world to be made, in a negative way ,, we must of made it diffently from the creator who is pure love.
that is why the saying,
if they hate you ,, remember they hated me first.
they didn't hate jesus the person..
but hated the creator , the creator within them all.

and that is why the forgiviness is necessary to realize the creator within everything and everyone and within ourselves.

i am just a person right now with my own faults,
but sharing this helps me feel better though many may not like the subject,,
i do admit i went into withdrawal myself about this,,
and there isnt' a day where i dont' struggle with it.

it is a lifetime affair, for this isnt' the first lifetime for us to explore this,,
and since all lifetimes happen all the time,,
in one lifetime we get it right and become masters and are helping ourselves..
just ask for help from the divine self within,, and divine masters without.
and books, ideas will come your way.

this idea isn't complicated, truth is simple
but it can infinatly applied.

what the tarot as inpretated by yours truly says about forgivness

i decided to throw a little tarot on the situation, to give people another light to shed.
using morgon greer

what is the true purpose of forgiviness?

0. soul message.
nine of the pentacles reversed

it is to make all people equal in love,, not in judgement.
you see the lady,, she is kept in the woods, away from each of us,, also she herself has put herself there for she has endured great hardships and so rather then focus on forgiving she can be at peace at nature.
it is a message that one can't be seperate for long from the world.
yet it is a sign that too many people are focused on the troubles of the world not realizing the cause of those problems lies within the mental structure of the world.

on a personal note my birthcard september the 8, falls under the ten day cycle of the virgo which nine of pentacles falls under according to the decantes.
so you see this is a personal message to me from the guides perhaps ?,
from the tarot ? certainly from the creator stating that i am not furfuilling that purpose.

1.the heart of the matter
7 of wands.

we know this card as an image of a person who is holding back those would beat him with their staffs with his own staff.
upon looking at forgiveness and these people putting their will and believes against him..
that the purpose of forgiveness is not to attack "i forgive you " indicating that someone has done wrong.
but simply to be and not make a show of it.
the person who does look a bit like jesus in this card lol has already forgiven those who do him wrong,,
but he is not letting them do him harm.
so forgiveness does not mean to say ,, it is ok for us to hurt each other for i will just forgive you no matter what you do..

we will forgive no matter what,, but it is not ok for us to hurt each other.
but the ideal of punishment don't exist.
so what can one do ?
that is the problem of our people,, how do we stop the murders, the rapes, the horrors of this world,
this card would indicate by putting up the perfect defense of the spirit and mind so no one can hurt us.

as i think of ghandi in the movie which i saw recently and how he kept going foward even though he got a beating,, and that scene where people kept going forward though they got beat down .
here it says go forward yet defend yourself as you do so,, never strike out, but you need not let them hurt you for they cannot.

2. the opposer as helper.
the hierophant.

now one might say ohh an upright pope card, there is nothign to oppose forgivness for isnt that what they teach ?
i don't know about that.
but it is clear that the opposing teachings of judgement, hell, punishment, repent, only the written word ,
these are helping us to realize the folly within them.
for it helps us to realize would a creator of love have judgement, hell, punishment for those who offended its ego ?
there has to be a lie there.
this hierophant mentality is affecting the world and has caused the confusion that takes it shape in our laws.
hurt the person and go to jail where you can get torturued, raped, possibly murdered.
if somone hurts you they are going to hell , so dont' forgive.
to the idea that only one person has the truth and so stay true to that person.
it is time to turn away from peter for while it did help ,, it now opposes forgiveness.

3. the distant past.
nine of swords.

this card shows two hands bound and many swords above them.
how can we forgive in the present if we havne't forgiven the past.. for in some part of us is still living that..
some of us right now are watching jesus get his butt whiped down the road,, and some of us are whipping his back down the road as he carries the cross..
and some of us dont' even know what is going on for we are ignorant
after all didnt' a man get crufied every day.
the past enslaves us, we cannot walk forth with the ropes of the past still binding us.
and the problem comes from the mentality of the past which still affects us today.

yet the swords are not pointing at the bound person,, it looks to me like he would be saying if i can only get my hands on those swords i can free myself and perhaps get revenge.
and that mentality of getting power so no one can hurt me,, hurting back the ones we love are so ingrained ,,we half of the time dont' even know we are doing it.

4. the recent past.
7 of pentacles reversed

the harvest didnt come about, for distaster has struck oh boy isnt' that truth, hurricanes abound..
the people of the world say how can we forgive when all the problems of the world are physical.
who is to blame for this,, no one listened, no one cared,
someone must pay...
but the truth is while there may be a one man scapegoat,
the answer lies in letting go of all that anger and spreading love to help each other survive the coming winter since the harvest was wrecked.
it is a time to pull together and say yes we are brothers ,, one man isn't to blame for this,, we all are in some form or another.
after all we all make this world though we try to deny it.

5. the present.
8 of pentacles.

now is the time to get together and work, and in order for us to grab each other hands, and walk down the street in unity,, forgiveness is needed.
i know this one time i hesitated before grabbing an ex loved one (i loved her but she didnt' love me in that form,, but did once,, and so the forgiveness was needed on my part) hand to support each other.
only by sharing together can we begin to master this world. we are still just learning to make the pentacles, to work together..
and that means not in a communism fashion , nor in a business fashion but in a universal, wholistic fashion where we will all eventually be workers none of us greater in the sense of king, leader, chief, boss, guru..
but simply in the sense of the brother or sister who is best suited for the task.

6. possible future.
queen of swords.

in the possible further will be a woman who is willing to take on the problems of the world for she has a very strong mind.. she picks up the swords but doesnt' take it up.
for all those who take up the sword shall die right ?
but in the sense of the 7 of wands using his beliefs to hold back the others will.
this lady shall use her mind of tactics, strategies and knowledge of people and politics to change a great many things.
the sword is simply there to defend herself and to be a symbol of her power which no one knows isn't power but an aspect of her forgiveness.
she will come from the politics of jesus and ghandi and buddha..
but to others who will try to use her,, she will be a steppigng stone,, but she will not be steped upon.

this aspect lives within us all, her mind determines her emotios..
we must learn to train our mind to control our minds in order to pratice foregiviness and in this sense we can change the world,,

7 the self, (how each of us should see forgivness)
the page of rods reversed

remember when we were young and all the training of the mind we recieved in the form of upbringing ? many a thing has been said for the background of a person,, and many people say it doesn't matter , give them the maxium life sentance.
and other people use background not for sympathy but for a cause to see them as lower then you..

forgiveness should start with our youth,, forgiving ourselves for making our parents cry,, for making them worry, for hurting them.
forgiving ourselves for hurting our brothers, our freinds when we were children.
forgive our parents for hurting us, for making us cry, for teaching what they thought was best.
many people say I WILL NEVER FORGIVE MY PARENTS, then they see themsleves becoming like their parents in some form..
some carry on the cycle of abuse, of lies.
because these things still linger in the brain unexplored, unforgiven,, and anger ,
which causes the subsconscious to say i will become like the parent and show them what they did was wrong.
i will become a mirror of my parents.

racism, sexual abuse, classism, relgious judgements, need to be perfect and disdain for anyone who isnt' is taught.
granted not all of these are taught to everyone..
know that all this wasn't anyone true fault.
be it the father who teaches his kids what he learnted .. or couldn't escape from.

remember none of this is ok, however the spirt isnt' injured, damaged,
that was one moment or possibly few moments in eternity.
the thing is teach the mind to let go of those images,

and so the message is teach the children right , and the world will fall into place in short time.
the more children who learn right , about forgivness,and a good way to deal with those who haven't learned,, not to send them to prision for 20 years of their life..
but to deal with them before they do wrong things is the answer.
and aftewards, that is for us to evolve into,, ways of non violence, non punishment to correct people wrong behavios.

8. enviroment
the lovers

so much off our world comes from love..
but much of it is conditional love
i love this job for it gives me power.
i love you for you make me feel good
i love you because your my mom
i lovve you because your my friend
i love you because your my victim
forgiveness starts a new kind of love,, no conditions.
"again the old saying jesus putting his mom equal with his followers,
but you don't see mention of him putting his dad equal with his followers.
but one must know he would of did the same. and should be taught "
it is not wrong to want, to explore , these things have to be taught as well.
masturbation is a perfectly normal thing, so is being aroused at the beauty of another.
yet so many turn away from love,
becuase it is not the person they hold as their dream prince..
buecase the person is not offering it in the form they desire.
that it is not right by class by race, by religion.

9. hopes and fears

we want the world,, but we fear what will happen when we get our wishes..
it is wrong for us to want money, to want houses, to want poltical power,
or so we fear the creator will judge us as such.
the creator says come only from love..
so it is ok to have money for one can offer it to the world as they see fit and keep some for themselves.
to want a nice wonderful home to make it a loving home..
to want political power to help out so many with a loving heart.
those who judge people by saying a holy man or good man will never keep all the money for themselves fear they will not get any abundance as well.
so another solution to the world problems is to teach abundant thinking,, and win win situions all around.
and the person who has 400 billions dollars doesnt really have that much for it is all in corpations keeping people fed, taxes.
mortage up their heads in 264 million dollars houses. and realizes the folly of such a thingg.
of course this isnt' true of all those who have money,,
but it is starting to even out eventually

10 the outcome
five of pentacles reversed.

here i see a woman hugging holding a person who is bandaged in the head , in the arm,,
one could be negative and say all the forgiviness in the world won't change that..
but i say that it means the person who is crippled, and wounded in the hands and the head will have help and no more will wander the streets,
for we will all reach out..
but it seems so far away..

when it comes down to it the goddess must forgive the god energy,, for the god energy is hurt , bleeding, while the goddess energy is whole.
what this means is
the love of the femine for the wounded male energy will balance out the world .
forgiviness of the male popes, of the male leaders, of those who hurt the woman.
and some day it will be the males who will be holding the wounded woman as well.
but first ti must be this way for balance.

and for me, in short
I forgive everybody and everything cause if i didn't it's me who will live the separation and the suffering of it!!!

Forgiveness is one of the step we have to do on the path to Realisation.

it's all depend on the way we choose to travel, i allways choose a way who have heart cause the road is more fun

Love, Light & Power
Omeada

Forgiveness is for helping us to grow...
(in many, many ways)

Forgiveness serves a multi-level & multi-purpose function.

Permits the individual to move forward/onward & can prevent it happening again under similar circumstances--hence, a real freedom from those blockages in the heart chakra.

Releases the karmic ribbon tying one to the other person.

Severs a pattern of neglect/restriction to the spiritual development.

Ultimately, teaches the deeper meaning & concept of Love.

Forgiveness lightens everyone's load and as MeeWah says helps us move forward. Think of the number of wars that could have ended quickly or not started at all simply through a better ability to forgive. The number of marriages that would remain intact or at least have more peaceful endings. The amount of grief that would be avoided or healed more quickly. The number of childhoods with happier memories. Forgiveness has a soothing effect. I understand why people resist it, and there are still things in my life I've been unable as yet to forgive, but it is a balm, and if one can manage to get there, I think life can't help but be better.

We live in a culture that for some reason has to find someone to blame for every unpleasantness or catastrophe, when seeking healing and reconstruction might be the better route. It's good to learn to prevent mishaps, but to live in a world where blame and punishment are essential isn't very healthy.

Nevada

I believe Meewah summarized in a good, personal way...

...about being able to walk in a kindly way and forgive those who have misjudged you or caused pain because of their weakness, limitations and inability to understand.

In very general terms, I've heard that the move forward and positive act toward healing yourself from damage and stresses from hurtful sources or mean acts can mean better health and integration.

But I'm speaking generally--as many have their own stories and very different circumstances.

One thing I've found, about forgiving people who are intent on hurting others. This doesn't mean you have to admit them into your presence, or that you have to save everyone who is hurtful. You don't have to endanger yourself...knowing the damaged, dangerous or hurtful personality aspects of those who hurt you will suggest whether it is best to walk away and heal in quiet, and work toward forgiveness as you can.

Wisdom gained from the experiences might assist one to not judge themselves harshly and also, in time, allow growth to extend compassion to others.

Again, this might be too general, but I'm hopeful that what I am saying is clear to the points that the first posts shared...

Cerulean

Funnily enough Holmes, I received a clairaudient message on this subject the other day, in a dream. It merely stated "until you walk in another man's shoes, do not Judge him" - which I think is a well-known phrase - it is here in England anyway. I like this phrase, because it reminds us, that those people who are rude to us, usually have problems of their own. It's like "kick the cat" sydrome isn't it? The boss kicks you, so go home and kick the cat.

Yes, it's important to forgive, the small things the most, I think.

Cerulean: Your well-worded post explains in detail what mine does not.

Thanks for the insights, too.

I like it

Forgiveness is actually very very selfish. We need to forgive because:

1. When we hold grudges, anger, etc. we are wasting our energy which can be used for better things. Once we forgive, we can move on and create cool stuff for ourselves instead of giving away our energy to the things we dislike.
2. Once we forgive, we "own" all the bad stuff. It's really really important to own the bad stuff and not let anyone else have it. Because, we can only work on the bad stuff we own and take responsibility for. If I let some "devil" own the bad stuff, he's in charge and won't do anything for me.

In other words, I can't cure a problem if I blame it on someone else. So forgiveness is really all about me when it comes right down to it. And by working on what I can, me, I can make the world a little better. I can't make you or anyone else better. You have to do that.