Nordic Runes vs. Celtic Ogham?

FaerieStorm

I'm becoming more and more familiar with the runes, however, I'm completely ignorant to the Ogham. Is the ogham oracle as well understood as the Nordic Runes? Are the interpretations as well researched and understood? Does the Ogham oracle function as well as the Nordic Runes (as a divination system)?

I read in Jennifer Roth's self-published book, which is a study on the Nordic Runes, that the Ogham's meanings are not well known because most of the Druidic and Celtic knowledge was lost. Does that mean that the Ogham meanings are less concrete?

Thanks for your insights!

-FS
 

einhverfr

Any divination lot system is based on the idea that the lots represent a piece of the cosmic system. Once one realizes this, it should be evident that the question is more of a question of "how well do we understand the Celtic as opposed to the Germanic cosmology." As someone who has been somewhat involved in both the Celtic reconstructionist and Germanic reconstructionist movements, I guess I am probably somewhat qualified to take a stab here...

I think everone on this forum (so far) seems to speak English, which is a Germanic language. The cosmological model manifests partly in language, so it is often easier to see the model of a group when you speak a related language. English is a direct decendant of the Migration-Age Germanic tongue that was used when the Elder Futhark was in use. On the other hand, I think that to really understand the Ogham, one would have to learn (at a minimum) Gaelic, or preferably Old Irish fluently enough to be able to read, write, and speak it properly. The Old Irish-derived languages (all three forms of Gaelic) are relatively difficult languages to learn because the concepts of space and individuation are different. For example:

We say "I am hungry" and they say "There is hunger on me."
We say "I went to see the doctor yesterday" and they say "The doctor was at me yesterday."
We say "He is a musician" and they say "There is music at him."
We say "I love so-and-so" and they say "My love is on so-and-so"
and so forth.

Also the above examples are of course translated back from Gaelic literally. The syntax is radically different from English as well. Like the Latin-based languages, you have adjectives following nouns, but the word order of the senence is different altogether. While most Indo-European languages are Subject-Verb-Object (i.e. "Joe (subject) went (verb) home (object)") the Gaelic languages are Verb-Subject-Object. Furthermore, you have no pronouns, so your prepositions are conjucated. Hence instead of the first sentence in Genesis I, we get something that looks like: "In-it the beginning, created-him God the heavens and earth." At about this point I gave up on learning Gaelic fluently :-(

The second issue is the question of the extent to which the Celtic mythic cosmology is really well studied compared to the Germanic cosmology. In general, the Germanic studies have a bit of an advantage here in that there is a bit more written on the subject that is readily available to English-speakers. However, in both cases, I believe there are enough works available to help get one to the point of understanding the concepts of sacred space and time that are used as the basis for the divinatory endeavor. If you only own one book in this area, let it be "Celtic Heritage" by Alwyn and Brinley Reese (sp?).

The third issue is how well the Ogham as a specific system within this framework is understood. I personally think that this is one area where there is still a lot of work to be done and our understanding of what the Ogham represent is still developing. We do know that they were clearly a cypher of sorts (and possibly inspired by the Germanic "hidden staves" traditions). Note that Tree Ogham is only one form of Ogham-- you have King Ogham, Castle Ogham, Hog Ogham, and a large number of othersystems superimposed upon eachother. There have been some important works in this area within the last decade or so (particularly "A Guide to Ogham" by MacMannus) which have yet to be well absorbed into the popular material.

In the end, I think that Ogham for English-speakers is a more difficult path to follow. However, in the end it is the path, not the tool, that counts. The question should not be "which is better" but rather "which culture do you want to spend your life learning more about?"
 

Dancing Bear

I could not have said what einhverfr has said any better. It is so true what he has said regarding What culture do you want to spend your life learning about. I was drawn to the Nordic Runes, even though my ancestors derived from the celts, i found it too hard to wrap my mind around. You may not :)
I dont know whether the meanings to the Ogham are any less they just need a bit more understanding and research.
Dancing Bear
 

FaerieStorm

20 or 25 Ogham fews?

I've been reading about the Ogham alphabet--most of what I've read has mentioned 5 additional few that have been added. I only saw 20 mentioned in the Ogham Table of Contents.

Any insight?

Thanks,

FS
 

Dancing Bear

Hi FairieStorm I havent gone right into the Celtic Ogham but here are other sites you can have a look at! The first site, It has 25

http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark/ogham/ogh-alph.html

http://www.uponreflection.co.uk/ogham/alphabet.htm

http://www.pixelations.com/ogham/index2.html

I hope at least one of these sites shed a bit of light for you.

The next one only has 20 mentioned.
http://glenavalon.com/ogham/celticogham.html

Yet again as always einhverfr will also have some input, he's pretty cluey with the runes. As mentioned before i never really delved into the celtic Ogham. But will help where i can. :)

Dancing Bear xx

I think the most information will be on the 1st 20 as the Runes even though are popular not as popular as the Tarot, so therefore less people delving into the history of them. My understanding of them was that through the time because of one reason and another, Runes went underground, and most of the lore was passed on by word of mouth, And we have only found messages written in runic language and not their meanings Most meanings were secret and only to be passed on via word of mouth and then that was a selective few..Its just in recent history are we gathering the passed on information and trying to piece together their true value. So you will find a lot of information quite vague.Even the meanings we have read about today are only scraping the surface. As einhverfr has sugested it is a good thing to research what the celts thought of the trees they use for the Ogham, their Myths, legends behind. etc... The druids history their rituals, beliefs the times and events surrounding their lives at the time etc..
in turn will give you more understanding and insight into why they used, how they used and how they understood and interpreted them.
It is just a fasinating subject. Your enquiries have spurred me on to delve deeper again :)


Will be interesting to hear what you find out :)
Keep us posted.
 

einhverfr

The five additional fews appear to represent diphthongs in Middle Irish. They do not appear to have been part of the main system, and they do not appear in any of the main Ogham tracts. Such fews might only have applied to tree ogham and been omitted even from the original system that became the basis for the cypher.

Ogham is a field where great amounts of academic scholarship is occuring even now. Alas the paper I wrote in 1997 on Ogham is well out of date now... It is no longer located on the internet to my knowedge which is likely a good thing. However, one point I noted was that the folklore of the staves when combined with an analysis of name ogham and mythic resources provided evidence that the trees seemed to have dual opposing operant uses. I.e. the trees were used both in specific types of enchantments and also in formulas to counter the same formulas. For example, the sloe was used in various types of hostile magic, but it was also used to protect against such enchantments. Don't know how much this helps, though.

The other paper I wrote on similar subjects is also outdated but is still worth reading. It can be found at http://accessnewage.com/ARTICLES/MYSTIC/DRUIDS.HTM

I would also recommend "The Apple Branch: A Path to Celtic Ritual" by Alexie Kondratiev.

At some point I may address Celtic Divination in another more complex writing but as for now.....
 

Elven

Great thread everyone!!!
Blessings
Elven x
 

Dancing Bear

eihverfr
as usual you are a wealth of knowledge, and thankyou so much for giving us your site to read. I havent read yet, but am so looking forward to it.

Thankyou
Danicng Bear :)