Difficult subject...

It is with a great deal of nervousness that I consider putting up this post... I certainly don't want to offend anyone here or put down anyone's path to spirituality...

Here's my deal - I am originally *from* Oklahoma, I'm a member of a tribe there and worked with the tribe for years. I have had a lot of contact with more traditional members of several different tribes over the years and one complaint that comes up a lot is about "cultural theft" - the idea that people from other cultures (traditionally the dominant "white" culture) take bits and pieces of traditional American Indian tribal cultures and knock them together with a lot of other things and come up with their "own" brand of spirituality. (Again, I am NOT knocking people who do this, I am trying to talk about the "complaint" of the traditionals.) One of the aspects of that complaint has to do with people not really being aware of what they're doing and misusing important spiritual rituals and symbols without the "proper" respect for their power. Another aspect has to do with a lack of deep understanding of the culture in question (ie: each tribe has it's OWN culture so ascribing attributes to a monolitic "Native American" culture is already starting out on the wrong foot) - - this leads to "stereotyping" and generalizations that traditionals find offensive as well.

And... this leads to a touchy subject for me -- the use of Tarot... I have to say right off that I don't know that EVERY traditional mindset would find Tarot to be incompatible with spiritual practices but I do know that I have had to be very careful to keep the two separated in my own world. I do participate in some traditional activities - and the Tarot is not a part of that. I also know that there are *some* traditionals that I would not even tell that I do tarot because they would see this as wrong. Others are curious or interested but do not see it connected to the traditional path/practices... (I am one of those.) I know it is a VERY touchy subject and a lot of traditionals feel angry about the "whites" stealing cultural symbols/practices - - I am wondering what people here think of that?

Again, I am NOT judging people here. It is one thing to *talk* about how people think/feel about certain trends/general practices.. it is a whole DIFFERENT thing to sit in judgement of another's path (which would be considered WRONG even from a traditional mindset). I hope that this does not offend or put anyone off!

Unfortunately, I find that "tradition" often is more a euphemism for dominance, intolerance, and control than a cultural designation.

Traditional theologians are neither traditional nor are they theologians...Discuss.

Here's two previous threads which have a lot of very interesting discussion on this topic:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22755

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=31536

-- Lee

Thank you Lee - for posting those threads. The link that started the first thread speaks more eloquently than I could. I'm still reading through them but wanted to say thanks.

More so than focusing on being *offended* - because I certainly am not offended by anyone seeking greater spiritual enlightenment, whatever path - and as pointed out in one thread, a lot of traditionals would say, "If you want to know, ASK!" - - it's about exploring the disconnect between the perception of traditional images and the "reality" or how traditionals see themselves...?

For example, many people find the "beautiful" imagery of a lot of art based on American Indians to be inoffensive. But the things I hear from traditionals is, "Barbie & Ken" - - ie: overly *beautiful* people in overly *beautiful* (and often incorrect) settings/combinations of images (ie: wolf/bear/kokopelli, etc.) There is this whole idea of the "Noble Savage" that is irritating - because that idea (dating back to the colonies) created a "good" indian and "bad" indian system - based on how the tribes interacted with the colonies... If you traded and gave up land and yielded.. you're a "good and noble savage" whereas if you fought or resisted.. you're a "ruthless savage."

Then.. on the idea of people of various cultures cross-creating something that is not from the culture they are a part of - - - I think that there is a great deal of rigorous *critique* of those kinds of decks - and a great deal of research goes into them... I would be SO impressed to know that a deck creator *picked* specific traditions and sought critical feedback from the tribe itself for the accuracy of the depictions of that tradition. (One example I can think of is a picture that is *based* on the idea of the Corn Mother - - NOT in an American-Indian specific deck - the STORY behind the corn mother is that she was killed by her sons and she told them as she was dying to drag her body over the ground - and where her blood hit the ground corn sprang up. The picture that I am thinking about in a tarot deck does not depict this in any manner.)

I admit, I have stayed completely AWAY from almost all decks that use American Indian symbolism (except the one mentioned above, which is not an American Indian THEMED deck). I don't know that I am looking to combine the paths either.. I am just kind of exploring the gap.

I am using the term traditionals in the way that it is used in the circles I am a part of. There are "modern" members of the tribe who do not ascribe to any form of traditional spiritual practices. They vary as much as anyone else - from "new age" to "christian" to "agnostic" or whatever. There are those that are "cultural" - they participate in social events but not necessarily spiritual practices of the tribe. Then there are "traditionals" who practice the old ways and learn the old ways by oral tradition. Tradition is not a dirty word. Being able to keep and pass down the "traditions" of a culture is what keeps it from dying out. Otherwise, all that would be left would be anthropology books and "other people's" opinions about what the culture was like.

-----

I am still not sure what the point of this thread is. One part deals with white men stealing other cultures and the other seems to have a vague connection to Tarot. I am not sure why these two discussions are intertwined as one.

Not trying to be rude, being_chrysalis, but the discussion of white people destroying everything they touch and a discussion of the Native American dislike for Tarot in general just don't seem to go together.

my two cents ...

Wow, TB.. that really wasn't the point at all. And I'm glad you said it because it certainly isn't what I wanted to say.

I put "whites" in quotes because of the fact that when I am around people who have a negative view of the dominant culture that is how they refer to the dominant culture... I guess there is probably a better way of putting it and if you can think of one that everyone would understand I will most certainly be willing to go back and edit my post.

What I was trying to start talking about is the disconnect between these two VERY IMPORTANT elements in my OWN life. I have started to go back and read previous threads on the subject and I can tell I've really stepped in it. The reason I went ahead and made the plunge is because both of these "paths" are very very important to me and I wanted to talk about that. Due to the nature of the spiritual practices I engage in that are more traditionally related - there are "rules" about when and where and how to talk about them.. I am mostly talking HERE about the things that don't seem to fit well together...

I am not trying to bash anyone. I am not trying to make anyone feel bad or guilty. What I am trying to do is to learn, to listen and talk and get a better understanding. I can't "choose" whether or not the unpleasant aspects/critiques exist, I can only choose whether or not to pay attention to them. so that's what I'm trying to do - pay attention to the conflicts so that I can see what it is they have to teach me.

C'mon TB - you are a very intelligent and EXTREMELY well-educated man of the tarot - I value your insights. What is it about how I'm wording this that is getting in the way a discussion of it?

being_chrysalis

I have read your post and one of the other posts listed.
You may rest assured in my support of your causes. I am Canadian and can speak from that perspective and say that I find the Government is lacking in a great many ways in their treatment of Native peoples. For myself, I will not spend my money on anything that goes toward denigrating your peoples. It is true we have been sold a "bill of goods" relative to your peoples. I resent it as well and support you where I can....sincerely memries

I have to admit that i don't really understand what it is you want to discuss with us...

is it the mixing of different spiritualities?

is it the mixing of spirituality and tarot?

is it something I missed under the mountain your assurances that you don't mean to offend?

Could you please clarify this for me (and maybe others) in order to create a constructive discussion?

I feel that the answers you may get will be conflicting as people will respond to questions that were maybe not asked...

Just a feeling!