Thoth Books?

rachelcat

Hi, fellow Thoth lovers!

I have DuQuette and BoT, both of which I find invaluable whenever I have that Thothy question. I also have The Crowley Tarot: The Handbook to the Cards, which I don't look at as often.

I spied Keywords for the Crowley Tarot by Banzhaf in Borders today, and it looked interesting for breaking out various symbols in the cards.

The question is: If I have Handbook, do I need Keywords? (On Amazon, Banzaf is listed as a co-author of Handbook???) So is it all the same info in a different format?

(I have Banzaf's Keywords for Astrology, and it's been a great help in dealing with the astro aspects of tarot . . .)

Any opinions? Thanks!
 

Sidhe-Ra

Too many cooks spoil the broth

The message that popped into my head was- "Too many books spoil the Thoth".

I'm sure it came from spirit, because I'm far too sleepy right now to come up with something that clever by myself. :)

Blessings,

Em x
 

rachelcat

Sidhe-Ra said:
"Too many books spoil the Thoth"

Good advice!! I think I'm going to post this on my bulletin board to remind myself that it's all about the CARDS!!

Thanks!
 

sunflowr

rachelcat said:
Hi, fellow Thoth lovers!

I have DuQuette and BoT, both of which I find invaluable whenever I have that Thothy question. I also have The Crowley Tarot: The Handbook to the Cards, which I don't look at as often.

I spied Keywords for the Crowley Tarot by Banzhaf in Borders today, and it looked interesting for breaking out various symbols in the cards.

The question is: If I have Handbook, do I need Keywords? (On Amazon, Banzaf is listed as a co-author of Handbook???) So is it all the same info in a different format?

(I have Banzaf's Keywords for Astrology, and it's been a great help in dealing with the astro aspects of tarot . . .)

Any opinions? Thanks!

I have the Keywords book and love it! I highly recommend it! It's what has helped me better get into using the Thoth deck. Even has a section on interpretation for if it's the card of the day!
 

cheekyinchworm

Scion said:
Hey Sandman,

I didn't list Integral Tarot for a couple reasons, and I would urgently, strenuously steer any Thoth beginner away from it as an introduction. Clear perhaps, Thoth no.

I won't comment on Suzanne Wagner's VERY dodgy speculative Tarot/Templar/Cathar history of the Dan Brown ilk. But I will point out that she is apparently aware of the existence of an "Ancient Egyptian Book of Angels" prefiguring the Tarot, which the infamous Knights managed to locate in Jerusalem. What!?! It's fine to speculate/fantasize, but in an introductory book it's unacceptable. At least present the accepted history. And please get the geography right... Templars in Egypt?? That's the opener and it's downhill from there.

Like Arrien and other fluffy New Agers, Wagner treats the images as if they dropped from the sky and have nothing to do with Harris, Crowley or Thelema. She catalogs the symbols, but in a framework divorced from context. Which is like decoding the symbolism of Notre Dames using the blueprints for a McDonald's because they're both buildings with windows that many people visit. The simplest proof of this is the weird sidestepping of all of Harris' Thelemic symbols and the fact that the book is based on the Thoth but "useful for any deck"...

Also like Arrien, Wagner favors the (as Rachel Pollack puts it) fluffy, pastel psychologizing of Tarot that became more and more common in the 80s and 90s. And for someone wanting something in that vein I'd point them to Arrien first. At least Tarot Handbook doesn't graft another mythology to the already complicated matrix of symbols in the Thoth. Mnemonics are useful, but this is Crowley's deck; the idea of offering a Christian parable to describe the "feel" of each Thoth Major is an idea upon which it's simply too bizarre to dwell. She just ignores the omnipresent elements of the deck that don't support her perspective. Which is frankly more McDonald's than Notres Dames.

Wagner's Templar/Cathar/Egyptian-Angel fantasia may support her strange Angelic/Christian take on the Thoth, but it is intellectually dishonest. Each Major is an Angel? Okay... but she's done zero research on Angelic lore, which ironically is a topic Crowley covered intelligently and at length. But not this breed of Angel; Wagner seems to see Angel as a Synonym for "active mood" We get Angels of Communication, Sacrifice, or Sexual Energy etc., so apparently Angel is a fancy name for Keyword. While this Angelic breakdown may be appealing to some, it has little or nothing to do with the deck's creators or symbolic structure. How does it add to understanding of the deck? I could write an intro text to teach the RWS to beginners using Inuit mythology or Tupperware sales brochures, but why? What purpose would it serve that wouldn't be misguided or misleading?

The weird thing is, this innocuous little book is a perfectly charming, New Agey guide for reading almost any Golden Dawn based deck. Her presentation is clear and accessible, if adamantly fluffly. Fair enough. But for the Thoth? Integral Tarot wouldn't seem so annoying if it didn't use a deck that already has a rich, complicated, carefully woven symbolic structure and then ignore it completely. The mind boggles. Perhaps after swinging by Egypt the Templars timetravelled to Utah and told Suzanne that Master Therion wouldn't mind if she hijacked his deck to invoke the Angel of Mystical Opportunism.

Blah blah. I realize this may seem strident, but I take book recommendations seriously. I just don't like to see mushy books like this supported because doing so misleads beginners, furthers shoddy scholarship, and whittles away at the public perception of "Occult Study," such as it is. Obviously, only my own opinion, but not blindly.

Scion

Scion,

Thank you so much for taking the time to post this very helpful review of Intregral Tarot. It made it VERY clear to me that this book is not for me. If even half of what you say--heck, if even only the part about the Angels is true--then my mind would also certainly be boggled as well.

I found your post to be measured, rational, supported, and (as mentioned) very helpful.

Thank you.
 

Scion

You're very welcome. :) Anything that helps good books helps us all...

Scion
 

ZenMusic

I concur.. for Thoth ..avoid the Integral Tarot by Wagner
worse than useless for the Thoth.. misleading

much of the value of the Thoth is the depth and richness of the (esoteric) attributions... and the power of collective

read Crowley, Banzhaf and maybe Duquette .. if you look at the Wagner , you'll see how far off it is from the consensus
 

Keigh

Many folks have commented that Arrien's book is fluffy....and that may be true, but I was unable to connect with my Thoth deck until reading her book. While it may not be Crowley's ideas that spout forth, I've had some pretty successful readings with it. Granted, I don't always go with the book, and I do always go with my own intuition first....One thing for sure, I've found the Thoth - and even Arrien's version of it....anything but gentle.
 

Bonnie

Take what serves you well ... leave the rest behind

This has been quite an interesting discussion on Suzanne Wagner's "Integral Tarot" book. I certainly find it to be a valid choice for those wishing to study the Thoth Tarot. I really did not find the book to be either "fluffy bunny" or "New Agey".

While Wagner does not delve deeply into the esoteric side of Tarot (specifically, the Thoth deck), her presentation is thorough, and clear. She covers issues such as:

1. The flow of the Trumps.
2. The inter-relationship between the Trumps.
3. Interpretations for each card, including upright and reversed meanings, astrological significance, the path represented, how to use the card for self-help, and questions to ask yourself in regard to each specific card.
4. The Court Cards are presented with astrolgoical significance, positive and negative qualities, and reversed meanings.
5. The Pips are presented with astrological significance, upright and reversed meanings, and questions to ask.
6. An index of the imagery in the cards.
7. A version of card timing involving assignments of timing (weeks, days, months) to specific cards.
8. Health issues with specific cards.

As with all works, my advice would be take what serves you well, and leave the rest behind.