Prescience, Precognition --> Science Fiction? Dune, Star Wars, etc...

Prescience, Precognition --> Multi Possible Futures? Sci Fi, Dune, Star Wars, etc...

Jeannette and/or Lori said:

augursWell:

I don't recall any references to the use of tarot specifically in the Dune novels -- if it's in there, it must be a small reference-in-passing. But divination is, in a very real way, part of the "heart" of the Dune storyline.

To spend much time outlining it here would probably take this thread too far afield of the discussion of tarot decks. If an in-depth examination is of interest -- and, now that you bring it up, it does strike me as a fascinating topic for this crowd -- it might be better-placed under the "Divination" heading.

But -- to whet folks' appetites, and see if it's worth starting a new thread, here's some of the key points, "in a nutshell": the planet Arrakis, a.k.a. "Dune," is the only known source of the spice "melange," which is why control of the otherwise barren, godforsaken planet is so strategically crucial in the stories. Melange is, in fact, a drug that can enhance mental abilities, and even produce prescient and precognitive visions when ingested -- to a greater or lesser degree, depending upon the abilities and training of the person using it.

People in positions of high power often rely heavily on members of the order of the Bene Gesserit to serve them as advisors. The Bene Gesserit, in turn, are a sisterhood who (among their other abilities) are able to utilize melange to "divine" information with incredible accuracy. Much of the crux of the first book rests in the efforts of the Bene Gesserit to breed a "Kwisach Hadderach" -- a male with super cognitive and precognitive abilities that can envision all possible futures and follow the chain of events necessary to bring about a certain one.

This brief description doesn't truly and accurately capture the depth and subtlety of the concept behind the early Dune novels, but it should provide a little of the general "flavor." If anyone is interested in continuing this discussion, I invite them to start a thread on the appropriate forum, and make a post here (or send me a PM) to let me know. It might be interesting, for example, to examine how tarot is, or can be, used to explore "multiple possible futures" through reading or meditation, and how far one can "push" this concept through the medium of the cards.

-- Jeannette
http://www.tarotgarden.com

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I thought I would place a little something here in case others wish to pursue this. I will certainly come back to this thread if it keeps going.

There are lots of references to prescience and precognition in Science Fiction and Fantasy books, films, TV shows, etc. Are they just that, Fiction?

It seems to me many of these stories dispense with the idea of "cards" and assume that a natural innate skill becomes possible. I personally do not agree with the idea that "mind-altering substances" are necessary in order to make such things possible, the danger of such substances outweighs any benefits. That is a concept touched upon in the Dune books to some degree.

Anyway, let's explore some "multiple possible futures".

Thanks for starting this thread, augursWell. What can I say? -- I'm a sucker for a good intellectual exercise.

What intrigued me the most, when I was making the post that you've quoted above, was the question of whether tarot -- or any of the better-known divination systems in use today, for that matter -- is, in fact, able to provide insight into more than one "timeline" at a time. If it is true that "the stars impel, they do not compel," then what would be the results of the various choices we could make?

(If you want to refer to a more clear-cut rendition of this concept in the science fiction genre, I might suggest reading the short story "All the Myriad Ways," by Larry Niven.)

It seems to me that a lot of readings simply provide two alternatives: the anticipated outcome if the querent makes no changes in their current course of action, and the probable outcome if they do. But, of course, in many cases there are any number of possible "changes" to make -- each change potentially leading to a different outcome. And, to be truthful, there's realistically any number of combinations of actions that further multiply the number of possible outcomes. The sheer volume of potential "timelines" is staggering; thus the need in the Dune novels for a "seer" with superhuman cognitive abilities, just to simply envision and comprehend them all.

I must admit that I'm not much of a reader, and therefore not well-schooled in the latest theories and techniques. So maybe I'm missing something that's already been well-established and well-discussed. But I would find it interesting to hear about any concepts, spreads, techniques, etc. that people employ in their readings, in an attempt to capture a broader range of possibilites, options, and outcomes.

-- Jeannette
http://www.tarotgarden.com

I think that the reason that precognition is included in so much sci-fi is that humankind rose to dominance by evolving his cognitive skills. The smart cavemen knew how to gather and save enough food to survive. If you continue human evolution to the far future in a story, you could imagine that survival would depend on PREcognitive skills (like the Navigators' Guild in Dune, on whose precognitive skills the entire Spice economy was based.)

If you assume that the future is in flux, always changing with each moment's variables, you wind up with a little green big-eared dude saying something like: "Always in motion is the future."

I think that the reason most Tarot spreads only offer two possibilities is that most of us like to narrow down our choices to a simple "either/or" situation. We see our problems as having either passive or active solutions. Therefore, the cards either tell us "Don't just sit there, do something!" or "Don't just do something, sit there!" It would take a very forward-thinking person indeed to entertain the possibility of a myriad of solutions.

As for a spread to cover all possible futures, or even most of the probable futures, I think it would look like 78 Card Pick-Up.

Indigo: I enjoyed reading your astute observations on the subject. I think you've captured some important points with what you've said.

As to exploring "multiple possible futures" via divination, and specifically tarot: I agree that it would be impossible for anyone to explore all possible outcomes within a single reading, or even within a series of readings. I had intended my question to be focused on a much more modest scale, to wit: it is possible to explore more than two possibilities within a reading, or, to push the question just a bit further, a handful of possibilities in one reading, or within [x-1] readings or less (where x is the number of possibilties being examined)? As long as one's attempts were not excessively ambitious, I would imagine it would be possible. It's just that at my own novice skill level, I can't actually imagine exactly how.

-- Jeannette
http://www.tarotgarden.com

I know what you mean, Jeannette, I didn't intend my post to imply that it would be impossible to explore more than two options in a reading. The 78 Card Pick-up wasn't really a serious suggestion. Mea culpa, I forgot that nobody can read tone of voice.

Maybe doing multiple readings would do the trick, or laying out the cards in almost a storyline, with as many branches at as many positions as you feel would be appropriate. I'd be inclined to do multiple readings, to allow for repeat outcomes and to allow for more random factors to show up by shuffling.

Indigo: No "mea culpas" here -- I understood your meaning... I got a big smile out of your whole post, in fact. But it did make me realize that I probably hadn't been specific enough with my question, in any case.

I expect that no querent truly wants to be overwhelmed by a huge number of choices and outcomes, at any rate. But by the same token, I can't shake the feeling that sometimes we limit the possibilities for ourselves too much in many a reading.

-- Jeannette
http://www.tarotgarden.com

Jeannette,

I understand where you are going with the idea of trying to look at multiple futures or outcomes. When you get right down to it, though, everyone would rather just have the "best" outcome. Thus we are focused on the single direction in life. Life of course isn't like that and so we end up having to choose which direction in life from choices that we might rather not make. That is why I don't see a Tarot "Reading" as a definitive answer/outcome, nor should it presented as such to others. I should mention that I've never read tarot cards for others publicly so I am handicapped in that regard.

In a basic sense any picture of the future can only be the Present since it is seen here and now. For example, the Starship Enterprise is current American Society's (or one part of it) idea of a future spacecraft. But if we had to immediately build such a starship right now, today, we would likely build a Starship Enterprise, it is really not the future at all but the present. Just look at how Enterprise has changed over the many incarnations of the SciFi series.

I personally see the cards in a layout as the source of that multiplicity, thus the layout is key. Presenting options is what a tarot spread is all about, I think. One technique I use in "common" layouts is to draw another card specifically for a particular card position with the idea that "this card will give me more information about this position" and then placing it on top of the card for added information. If you start with a layout that embodies mutiple possible futures then adding cards in this way might expand upon those possibilites.

But again, an infinite number of possible futures is not really possible since they all start in the here and now. I am male, I will most likely never become pregnant and give birth to a child. Any living thing will have many such restrictions on their lives and the resulting possible outcomes. It seems to me one has to start with the person, or the querent.

And I agree with the green guy who said "Always in motion is the future."

Also, we should not forget that in virtually every case a person consults the cards, or some other souce(a trusted friend, family member, etc.), mainly because they DO have only one thing on their mind that they wish an answer to.

Sorry, I've had a long day and I'm rambling. Feel free to try and get me focused again.

augursWell: Thanks for sharing your insights. To be honest, I've known many readers who "expand" a spread after it has been laid out, by adding more cards for clarification/expansion when it seems warranted. This makes a lot of sense to me, yet for some reason, I've never personally been able to get myself to try it. There's a very strange part of my brain that keeps telling me, "work with what you've got; look deeper!" rather than doing a sensible thing like trying to "ask for more help," as it were.

Like you, I don't see tarot as a definitive answer/outcome either. Which is why the possibility of exploring a wider range of options intrigues me. But, as I said at the outset, I see the question largely as an "intellectual exercise." It isn't really practical to take the idea too far in actual application, for reasons already cited.

So, to wind the discussion back around to science fiction: we've cited Dune and Star Wars here -- what other obvious examples can be found in the SF "classics"? I'm tempted to cited Phillip K. Dick's The Man in the High Castle, because of the heavy use of I-Ching found there, but since the story isn't "futuristic" in the typical science-fiction sense, I'm not sure that it "plays into" the original question well.

-- Jeannette
http://www.tarotgarden.com

Jeannette and/or Lori said:

So, to wind the discussion back around to science fiction: we've cited Dune and Star Wars here -- what other obvious examples can be found in the SF "classics"? I'm tempted to cited Phillip K. Dick's The Man in the High Castle, because of the heavy use of I-Ching found there, but since the story isn't "futuristic" in the typical science-fiction sense, I'm not sure that it "plays into" the original question well.

-- Jeannette
http://www.tarotgarden.com

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Jeannette,
I found that I started to get better readings when I started doing as you say, "work with what you've got; look deeper!". So I think this is a good thing to do. As a beginner I would lay out the cards, look at them blankly, and say to myself "This doesn't mean anything to me". I would reach for the book and try and make sense of it. Now I challenge myself to see whatever meanings I can in a card and it's position. I rely more on myself and less on the cards.

I had not heard of the Phillip K. Dick story that you cite above. I think if it deals with divination that it is certainly germaine to this discussion. I am frankly at a loss to think of any other films, stories, etc. that deal with divination as a concept, although I am sure there are many that I simply can't remember.

augursWell said:

I found that I started to get better readings when I started doing as you say, "work with what you've got; look deeper!". So I think this is a good thing to do.

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Thanks for the encouragement, augursWell. I think in order to "grow" my reading skills, I should be open to occasionally trying new techiques, even if they're not entirely "comfortable" for me. But it's nice to hear that maybe my "gut instincts" are not so crazy or short-sighted after all, and that I shouldn't feel too guilty for being a bit focused on working closely with a spread "as it lays."

I had not heard of the Phillip K. Dick story that you cite above. I think if it deals with divination that it is certainly germaine to this discussion. I am frankly at a loss to think of any other films, stories, etc. that deal with divination as a concept, although I am sure there are many that I simply can't remember.

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The Man in the High Castle is considered by many to be Dick's best work, although it's certainly not as well-known as some of his other stories. Many folks, of course, know of Dick's work through recent films based (loosely) on his stories: Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? (a.k.a. Bladerunner), We Can Remember it for You Wholesale (a.k.a. Total Recall), and most recently, Imposter and Minority Report.

But The Man in the High Castle won the 1963 Hugo award for Best Novel -- the only Hugo Dick received, although certainly not the only writing award he received. The story is set against the background of an Axis victory in World War II, which led to a conquered U.S. occupied in roughly equal halves by the Germans (Eastern U.S.) and the Japanese (Western U.S.). One of the things that I think Dick was trying to illustrate with the inclusion of the I-Ching -- which is used extensively by one of the characters, a California native -- is how the culture of the victors in such conflicts tends to blend in, and even overtake, that of those that they defeat. However, as an interesting sidenote, I've read that Dick himself actually used the I-Ching in writing the story, taking the plot in directions indicated by his interpretation of the resulting hexagrams.

However, this is not divination used on a grand scale; it is divination applied at a very "mundane" level, in everyday life. Which makes, I suppose, for a nice contrast from the Dune / Star Wars sort of super-prescience, where precognitive powers have powerful applications that are used to shape the destiny of mankind (and/or its alien equivalents).

-- Jeannette
http://www.tarotgarden.com