Books vs. No books

Umbrae said:

I simply believe that experience placed upon a foundation of intellectualism is less solid than intellectualism placed upon a foundation of experience.

Click to expand...

Very well put.
We do need the glorp to be there after all, and can not read our way to finding it. But we can read our way to understanding how to listen to it, and to feel our way to what the right way is for us.


SunChariot,
the word 'glorp' came up as a re-write for 'intuitive flow' to keep the discussion away from the semantics of needing to describe whether we get our flashes from intuition, divine intervention or whatnot.
A word that in this particular discussion gets to symbolise 'the intuitive feeling for/understanding of the cards that we have during readings' if you will...

This will most likely get deleted but I had to get this off my chest....

Reading books can only serve to enrich our love, knowledge, and appreciation of tarot.

I am new to AT. Isn't this forum supposed to be dedicated to the purpose and pleasure of sharing knowledge, insight and appreciation of Tarot? I come to this forum to seek answers, get advice and compare experiences; but all too often I find members getting into "pissing matches" (excuse the French). There are so many experts here who have so much to offer. Please teach…not preach!

I touched on this before, but nobody has commented on it yet. Do you think that study and knowledge might help us as professional readers in terms of demonstrating to the sitter that we actually know our stuff? I know that sounds ludicrous at first but hear me out. For the most part, your average person judges a person's mastery of a subject based on the amount of study they have put in...or how many degrees they have, etc. I know that this is an incorrect judgement, but it is prevalent in society.

If we know our history, our philosophy, our art, the inspirations behind our deck, our symbolism...we are able to provide more for the sitter who wants to know where Tarot came from, the origin of a particular symbol, who created the deck and why, etc. If you can have these answers readily available for a curious sitter, then you have given them another reason perhaps for recommending you to others or coming back to you again. "Not only was their reading accurate, but they were well versed in their Qabbala!" I know it seems a bit shallow for people to judge based on scholarly knowledge alone, but people do it all the time. People like things they can measure and weigh, facts they can check. As professionals who provide a service to a wide variety of people, we need to think about the people who value our readings for more than glorp alone. Some people might need to know that we are well-read, that we studied. Some people just go with the flow and don't care about that at all. Shouldn't we be prepared for as many types as possible?

ANY kind of study or research or learning can help us as readers in simple ways like:

Expanding our vocabulary-- Scion and Umbrae are very good at making their points. One of their strengths apart from their intelligence is their ability to express themselves in the right words. This is good for Tarot readers.

Giving us more of an understanding of other cultures- Doing a reading for a person from Nigeria might take a different approach than doing a reading for a person from the UK or the US. Nigerians see divination practices from a very different perspective than your average american or european.

Giving us better examples for a point we're trying to make- Using a biblical reference to help someone understand the philosophical point you are trying to make for example.

Getting advice on how best to run your Tarot "business"- Heck...how you manage the taking of the money from the sitter alone could give them a positive/negative opinion of your before you've even thrown down a card!

I think we all get so worked up about this because there are so many things to consider. In terms of glorp and the reading of cards by the reader, studying from books is not the answer. In terms of educating the sitter or improving skills peripheral to the actual reading of the cards that can enhance the overall experience of the encounter between sitter and reader, study is helpful.

I almost addressed this earlier today but then decided to just move on because I left this topic earlier. There aren't a lot of other posts I haven't covered, though, so I peeked in again.

The sitter comes to you for a reading. Of course the subjects you study on your own are going to make you more learned and probably enhance the way you read because everything you learn plays a part in the reading in a roundabout way. But in my experience, sitters don't ask questions about any of that. They're interested in their own personal problems and how I, through the cards, can help them to address those problems.

To be perfectly honest, I think someone who wants to trot out all their educational credits to parade in front of a sitter is on an ego trip.

True, if someone were to ask specific questions about Tarot topics that would require lots and lots of research, study, and memorizing of facts in order to answer, it would be great to be able to answer them. I've never had anyone ask, but if anyone ever does ask and I don't have a litany of facts to parade, I won't feel at all bad. I'll just honestly say that I haven't studied the subject in that kind of depth and ask if my reading has been helpful to them.

Maybe it depends on why you read Tarot.

Dialogue, especially from diverse viewpoints is in my opinion vital for the growth of our Tarot loving community.

Sure, on the surface, many of us appear not see eye to eye. But such is also the limitation of the forum as a medium.

I truly believe – that though it appears that Scion and I are at odds, should (and we shall one day in the not too distant future) we sit down at a table and talk – indeed veins may pop from our foreheads, spittle may fly with our impassioned words – but we shall reach agreement, even upon our disagreements.

Passion may be misconstrued in such a venue as this, where vocal tones and body language is lacking, but our love of our chosen field of study rises above all differences.

I highly respect Scion. I highly embrace the shared passion. Our backgrounds create a gulf of language which we occasionally attempt (like the Fool) to step off…

As a professional reader, I find that life enriches my reading ability. Everything I’ve read (including The Alchemy of Finance by George Soros) help enrich my reading skills. PJ O’Rourke, Schwager, Niederhoffer, Buffett – share shelf space with Greer, Pollack, Rojtman, Kaplan, Rickleff, Amberstone, McElroy, Dummett, Crowley, Waite…

I am unapologetic about my path. As I said, I simply believe that experience placed upon a foundation of intellectualism is less solid than intellectualism placed upon a foundation of experience. I encourage others to embrace this path as a possibility – not as the only path.

Joe Public the sitter may or may not be aware of any of it.

Of course there was a day that I was reading, and dang near every sitter was another professional reader, healer, or astrologer. But do I let that scare me?

No. I just do what I’ve been doing for years. And every day I do it, and every day I live, and every day I walk my passion and live my truth – I become better. Not only as a reader, but as a human being.

I pray that my passion may help others free themselves from a troubled future. And I embrace dialogue along the path.

And I embrace Scion – as I always have.

And I thank Splungeman, the Lord of Cheese for the opportunity for this dialogue.

Shalom…

I should have added, too, that I don't think anyone who has participated in this thread would "trot out their educational credits in front of a sitter". I said "anyone who would " do it, not that anyone in the thread does do it. I respect the people here for their love of Tarot and their dedication to practicing it to the best of their ability, as well as their dedication to learning all they can so that they can pass it on to posterity. I don't mean for anyone to think I'm throwing stones in the direction of anyone.

AT is like a big family reunion in a lot of ways. We don't all see eye-to-eye and we don't always understand each other totally, but down deep, we've got lots of mutual respect and genuine affection for each other, nonetheless. At least I know that's how I feel about it.

I hear you Solitaire!

And I'm with you 100% Umbrae. And not just agreeing to disagree, but literally, I agree with you.

I think it's very easy for people to forget that discussing a meaty topic with any degree of accuracy is difficult and bound to unleash energy and focus. Nature of the beast. Even trickier to do that without the simple cues of body language and facial expression.

Frankly, I'd be depressed if every conversation on AT wound up degenrating into a puddle of mindless agreement and group hugs. My feeling is that if everyone is agreeing then nothing important is being discussed. The important thing here is that it IS important. And I have much more respect for someone who's willing to duke it out, sift through preconceptions and force me to sift through mine... than for bland half-attention; on such empty gruel is the modern consciousness habitually weaned. The only antidote is precision.

I was thinking today about why I find this topic so enraging and critical, and I relaized it's because it strikjes at something I think is vitally important, not just for Tarot but for everything in life: people's need to take personal responsibility for every single decision they make and don't make. My fervor around this topic is rooted in my belief that the world is changed by people paying attention to it. And paying attention is, after all, what Tarot is.

Splungeman, I do think expertise is somethign that a sitter can look for. I disagree with Solitaire about that always being a function of ego. I don't think it's ego if my doctor can explain to me what an infection is doing, or why I need to have a mole removed. And this bumps up against where Umbrae and I disagree, because doctors do not learn to practice medicine by practicing medicine... or more specifically, practicing medicine is not a single activity. Medicine (like most skilled professions) is only a singularity fromthe outside: in fact it's a cocktail of research and cramming and politics and butchery and chemistry and temperament and partnerships and bedside manner and billing and timing and charisma and chutzpah. Who's to say where the boundaries of "medicine" are? It's like the Elephant and the blind men.

I am a person who wants to see how the world fits together. And I find that many people who come to me for readings appreciate me being able to answer questions with specifics... even if those specifics don't come directly from something I've studied. Not all, but many. Some people are seekers, and some people just want a simple direct answer. Tomayto, tomahto. My readings are made of the fabric of my life as much as my writing is. Every moment I'm alive enriches and inflames my creative output. I have spikes of intuition that are invaluable and I study voraciously... I don't know how I'd go about separating their value and impact. I don't think you can reify a process as subtle and nonlinear as a reading or its flow. I'm never afraid of a new subject or a big challenge. Everyone doesn't approach unfamiliar material that way. I can't imagine choosing not to explore something that might prove inspiring or enlightening. The world is wide and will not fit within the shadow of our steeple.

Splunge, I think that this answers your most recent question... It's a good one, and I think a bit more complicated than it might seem at first. SOmethig to think on further...

xo

Scion

Scion said:

Splungeman, I do think expertise is somethign that a sitter can look for. I disagree with Solitaire about that always being a function of ego.

Click to expand...

A sitter looking for expertise in a reader is different than what I said. I said a reader who wants to trot out their credentials and knowledge, meaning a reader who is just looking for every opportunity to do so and even tells the sitter when they didn't ask. Who is so proud of their education and credentials that it affects the reason they read. There's nothing wrong with a sitter looking for a reader with expertise at all, if that's what they feel is important. I'm sure there are sitters---especially nowadays----who do look for that.

Scion said:

I don't think it's ego if my doctor can explain to me what an infection is doing, or why I need to have a mole removed. And this bumps up against where Umbrae and I disagree, because doctors do not learn to practice medicine by practicing medicine.

Click to expand...

Well, I'd much rather a doctor be able to tell me these things from having dissected some cadavers and treated some others with the condition than just tell me what he's read in books. If I had to choose, I'd choose the doctor who had learned from practicing medicine.

The two things are really not related, of course, even though I do see the line of reasoning.

I should probably just shut up and go watch TV.

I respect Scion's position and experience. I also respect Umbrae's. But I tend to fall on the side of what Umbrae's position is more. However, if he's not careful and doesn't quit reading so many books, he's gonna fall over the fence onto the New York side, I fear. (Just kidding.)

I like to thumb through books and see what advice the author has to give about tarot in general and/or interpretations, different spreads, etc.

I find that it's good to have a basic idea of what the cards mean, and then go by what you see in the card. From what I have read, many suggest that if you look at the card and come up with a meaning before reading its definition, and the two end up being completely different, that you should go with what your instinct was to begin with. Book or online definitions are simple guidelines to help you understand what the generalized meaning behind the cards are, and it's helpful as a beginner to learn them, but I believe that along with a general idea of the card's meaning, you should examine it on your own, and try to figure out how the card makes you feel and what you see in it.

I recently purchased Tarot Plain and Simple by Anthony Louis. I really like how he set up the definitions in the book. He shows a picture of the card, gives a quick phrase or sentence for a definition, gives some key words or phrases that represent the card, lists some advice or a situation that relates to the card, and finally, he adds a list of people that can represent the card. As a beginner myself, this helps me to memorize the basic definitions, and get an understanding of situations in where the card can apply and how it does so.

hello

anyone who knows me, probaly knows i am a big book enthuiast.
and of course there are a lot of beginners book out there then when you look around you find the intermediate book and then the advance book.

some of these can only help in my opnion of course, one tarot reading ability.
i am refering to books like the tarot courts, and tarot reversals.

but here is where i stop.

you see my advice is to read them all these books (or find some reccomended books as to read all these books is quite expensive in the long run , it is like you setted up your own poker school), then slowly let go of them.

they are to serve as your guideposts, your skelton on which to put your own meat on. that meat is your own interprations, your own expereinces that a book like tarot for yourself could help you develop of course.

the advice isnt' to turn the tarot books into your tarot bible and who knows down the line after reading a book on tarot and the kabbalah you may decide you like that system. or a book on tarot and numerology.
and that could lead to a whole new school of understanding for you.