Blessed Are the Ignorant (or, a funny thing happened in a coffeeshop)

I openly admit that I am pretty ignorant about voodoo. I have always thought that the only way you could do it was with the doll and the pins. I have also never associated it with black people any more than I have associated it with white people, Asian people, etc. *Shrug* This ignorance makes me react differently to the guy's comment. If I had been sitting with Afrosaxon and I would have heard the comment, I wouldn't have even thought it was offensive. I'd just be like "What the...? Where did he get that from?"

Ah… Well, that does make a bit more sense to me afrosaxon, why you’d find it offensive. Believe it or not, I never realized you were black (never thought about it, honestly). I wouldn’t find it the least bit offensive, but I’ve not had to deal with that stereotype.

I do get weary when someone suggests I’m Wiccan because I read Tarot cards. (This happens more in town. The main shop that advertises Tarot cards and readings in the area happens to be Wiccan, and I do know the owner.) But it doesn’t offend me. I just find it tedious.

shaveling said:

It's not just in Texas. A lot of people from the southern US refer to folk magic, especially African-American folk magic, as voodoo or hoodoo. This isn't ignorance, these are the traditional regional names for traditional regional folk practices. Zora Neale Hurston, who wrote about this a lot, said that voodoo is mostly the white folks' word, and hoodoo the black folks' word. If you look in the catalogs that sell to that market (powders and washes and oils and hands and such), you'll often see what folks here on ATF call Voodoo, Voudun, Vodou, specified as "Haitan Voodoo,"to distinguish it from the ordinary, Southern kind. My understanding is that these days, a lot of hoodoo specialists do use Tarot to do readings.

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Hoodoo isn't Voodoo mind you. So, pretty please, as a personal favor, no one here use the two interchangeably. They aren’t the same at all.

Voodoo (spelled Voodou?) is a religion that uses specific spirits; hoodoo is rootwork, essentially Southern folk magic. I actually practice some hoodoo, but I'd never work with the vodum/Loa, being uninitiated (and, you know, not practicing that religion and not happening to really believe in them or worship them or want to develop personal relationships with them). That's a recipe for disaster.

As I understand it, in Mules & Men, Zora Neale Hurston was poking fun at white folks because they thought Voodou was hoodoo. Seems like the sort of think she’d do.

afrosaxon said:

Eh...can't quite smoke with y'all on this, Satori and Franniee. He was asking more based on the ritual he thought I was using (e.g., shuffling and card layouts). It's not like I was chanting or drawing veves on the ground. LOL I doubt that if I were using the Osho Zen, he would ask, "Are you practicing Buddhism?"

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Practicing nah? But I’ve had someone come over to my house and say, “Oh, you’re Buddhist” before because they saw I had this deck. (For the record, I am not Buddhist. I also had several Bibles, several books on Jewish law, and a host of Cabala books in plain site of where he was standing.)

Anyway, my point is: people are weird.

Wow, this thread sure got some heated response. I assumed from the first post that the part you, Afrosaxon, were reluctant to voice was the idea that the waiter assumed you were working Voodoo because you were black. It was pretty clear. And I think that in the same situation I would have been somewhat offended. It doesn't need to be defended or explained...sometimes things just get under our skin. Often with reason, sometimes without reason.

I have dark hair and olive skin. People are constantly telling me what race I am, in the form of a statement, not a question. Indian, Mexican, Greek, Italian, and once I was told I was Samoan by a Samoan girl. ("You're an island girl" and etc.) I feel like this is some kind of fear that without identifying me by race they won't know how to deal with me. I would like to take it as harmless curiosity, but it seems more aggressive than that.

Why do I mention this? Because I think people do make assumptions about other people by race and I don't know if it can be eradicated. Some people do, and some don't. It does bother me. All the more so since I actually have no idea what race I am. If I let that bother me, I'd never get past it.

They are that... I get the Buddhist comments fairly often (I don't mind them, but they're consistant) from first time visitors to my home. I've got a friend who is lapsed Catholic, married to a Buddhist and a few years ago she started sending me Buddhas in various stone materials - it's a nice collection I enjoy displaying.

Oddly, she also sends me the odd Catholic icon which are also displayed and no one ever asks about those (and those are much farther removed from anything I'd consider labelling myself with than the Buddhas are). I think people's brains just automatically trigger on whatever looks unusual to them and try to work out an explanation based on whatever logic they can come up with.

(Also, the Osho was a deck I could safely bring to work without having to worry about the random 'you know that's evil, right?' chat from certain colleagues but take a deck with Christian symbolism and hoo boy...)

berrieh said:

Anyway, my point is: people are weird.

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Very true... sometimes they're really ignorant and stupid too.

And sometimes, they truly are curious and want to know... I find it really offensive when someone asks me if I'm German or something because my French isn't quite up to their sense of how a French person speaks.

My Daddy taught me a long time ago... Racism isn't what someone says, it is what someone hears.

Which is why I do not and will not allow my children to use the N word, which in the Bahamas amongst my hubby and his friends means "buddy"...

Imagine... my husband having walked into a major Canadian University, fresh off the boat, steps into the cafeteria with his lunch in hand, looks around for a friendly face and sees three black men sitting at a table in the corner having their lunch. Hubby seeing "familiar" faces, strolls over and say's "Hey, how y'all N's doing"... My hubby leads a charmed life, you see, because although he was quite bunny brown from having grown up in the tropics, he is still for all intents and purposes a white man. Two of these men just happened to be from Georgia. You can imagine... I'm sure the three of them paled considerably... The largest of the three chortled and said... "Where you from boy?" Lucky thing hubby was Bahamian. Anyone else would have been picking his teeth up off the ground.

My point is.. If you are used to being on the receiving end of racism... you tend to know it when you hear it.

I'm not often on the receiving end of racism, but I do get sexism and as different as it is, it's similar. Thing is, I can easily tell when someone is just ignorant, as in doesn't know any better, or when they're being sexist.

There is no doubt in my mind that AF was on the receiving end of a racist comment and any suggestion to the contrary is rather silly, because nobody but AF heard it.

All Is One said:

Wow, this thread sure got some heated response. I assumed from the first post that the part you, Afrosaxon, were reluctant to voice was the idea that the waiter assumed you were working Voodoo because you were black. It was pretty clear. And I think that in the same situation I would have been somewhat offended. It doesn't need to be defended or explained...sometimes things just get under our skin. Often with reason, sometimes without reason.

I have dark hair and olive skin. People are constantly telling me what race I am, in the form of a statement, not a question. Indian, Mexican, Greek, Italian, and once I was told I was Samoan by a Samoan girl. ("You're an island girl" and etc.) I feel like this is some kind of fear that without identifying me by race they won't know how to deal with me. I would like to take it as harmless curiosity, but it seems more aggressive than that.

Why do I mention this? Because I think people do make assumptions about other people by race and I don't know if it can be eradicated. Some people do, and some don't. It does bother me. All the more so since I actually have no idea what race I am. If I let that bother me, I'd never get past it.

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You my dear, are an earthling. Now, you know.

There. Finally....someone has identified my racial profile. Thanks, DG! ;~)

The point is this. In order for one to feel upset, it points back to something inside that individual that feels some contempt for voodoo. I don't understand how that can be possible with someone using cards based on the heritage. I am proud of my roots and would have felt honored that someone thought me capable of such energy. In cultures where voodoo is practiced these practitioner's are revered and respected- there is no sense of shame or offense.

I have struggled for years with the concepts of Buddhism, and would be totally honored if someone asked me if I was practicing Buddhism, after seeing me with Osho cards. It is because I have reverence and respect and not contempt for the roots of and history of Buddhism.

To take it a step further, if I had a witches tarot, and someone asked if I was practicing witch craft- if I had any reverence or respect for the craft and the many people who died and were killed, I would not only feel a sense of honor, but anxious to address the questioner. It is only if I have contempt for witchcraft that I would get offended.

The larger problem here is that we as new agers, go into indigenous cultures, borrow from them and have no respect for them. And this is the point I make when I say ignorance is a double edge sword, sometimes coincidence happen to point us to growth that needs to happen inside of us. We must have respect and reverence for the tools, as well as the history of the tools that we choose to utilize on our spiritual journey in this world.

As a creole woman- who because my skin shade is black, I am seldom given the opportunity to publically claim my rich heritage of Indian, French and creole- because all people see is black---->Africa. I am not offended by voodoo in Africa, Haiti, or Down the Bayous of Louisiana, it is part of my culture and therefore a point of pride, not shame! So I would take no offense and feel honored to engage in the conversation concerning the rituals, the differences and its roots- as it is my legacy.

I hope someone understands my point, that the sense of offense comes from shame, and from feeling that one is above the very foundation that one is standing on. The ignorance lies in believing that we can borrow from, homogenize and separate the things we choose and become offended at those things we feel the culture contains which are beneath us. Its about respect- self-esteem and pride. I would not use voodoo cards if I felt ashamed that anyone would associate it with its roots. (creole-africa-hati..etc.)

It would be like me wearing a black power sign and then becoming offended that someone thought I was a affiliate with the black panther movement-- simply because my skin color was black. Or wearing dreadlocks and getting offended because someone thinks I'm rasta fara or smoke marijuana.... I simply cant blame it on being black....and It gets very silly after a while.

All Is One said:

There. Finally....someone has identified my racial profile. Thanks, DG! ;~)

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You're ever so welcome. Glad I could be of service.

very well said, genovia