Huck
In the Boiardo thread we discuss a relation between the "neuf preux & neuf preuse" in the castle of the Saluzzo family in Manta (made ca. 1418 - 1430 after the Marchese Tommaso of Saluzzo - died 1416 - wrote a work "chevalier errant") and the Boiardo deck.
I made some basic research to the object "neuf preux & neuf preuse" in the web. This both pages are informative:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuf_Preux
French Wikipedia-article
http://clio.revues.org/document1400.html
about Penthisilea (carpet-motif) of 16th century, but includes this good passage about the female parts (which were added later, after the male group already existed at the begin of 14th century):
Here are some links to the castle of Manta:
http://www.italymag.co.uk/italy_reg...2007/arts/manta-castle-restorations-end-2009/
Restauration of Manta Castle till 2009
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerano_di_Saluzzo
Valerano di Saluzzo, illegitime son of Tommaso, reigned for his nephew Ludovivo, died 1443, commissioned the Manta castle pictures
http://www.uni-protokolle.de/nachrichten/id/26619/
Dissertation to the Roman in context to the Manta castle pictures (German language)
I extracted some data and sorted them in a time table, to have a better overview:
Male figures:
1310 - 1312: "Le motif des Neuf Preux apparaît pour la première fois dans Les Vœux du paon[1], roman en vers composé par Jacques de Longuyon qui sert de base à une mise en scène festive à Arras vers 1312"
"Jacques de Longuyon of Lorraine is the author of a chanson de geste, Les Voeux du paon (The Vows of the Peacock), written for Thibaut de Bar, bishop of Liège in 1312. It was one of the most popular romances of the 14th century, and introduces the concept of the Nine Worthies."
According to a note, captured somewhere (not necessarily true): "The hero of the poem is described as being more courageous than the nine great heroes of history". - so, according to the logic, somehow a tenth hero is involved.
http://www.artfact.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?lotCode=w6JHQfN1
gives some data to an edition sold by Sotheby's; the major story is about Alexander, the heroes are somehow mentioned.
Female figures:
Probable source for the 9 female figures (which are in their composition not similar stable as the 9 male figures): Jehan Le Fèvre, wrote 1373 - 1387) in "Livre de Lëesce"
; also Eustache Deschamps (ca. 1345 - 1405); Boccacchio in "De claris mulieribus"
Timetable
#######
late 14th century: 9 male sculptures at Saal of the Hanse, city council Cologne
1385-1396: Der "schöne Brunnen" in Nurremberg, shows 40 figures between them the 9 heroes. It's arranged in 4 stages: 1. Philosophy and 7 artes, 2. 4 evangelists and 4 fathers of the church, 3. 9 heroes and 7 Kurfürsten, 4. Moses and 7 prophets
(it's indicated, that there are other representations in other German cities of the time)
1387 "le thème apparaît en ornement sur des cheminées monumentales du château de Coucy"
1389: "un tapissier arriégeois, Jacques Dourdin, réalise un «grand tapis des Neuf Preux et Neuf Preuses » pour le duc de Bourgogne, Philippe le Hardi
1393: "Charles VI de France avait fait construire le château de Pierrefonds dont les neufs tours portaient chacune le nom d'un preux"
It has an "salle des preux" (no date)
1395-96: Chevalier errant written in prison by Tommaso di Saluzzo (rewritten ca. 1403-04 ?, realised by his illegimate son in Castle of Manta 1418 - 1430)
begin 15th century: "sur la façade du château de La Ferté-Milon". The chateau was made on the initiative of Louis d'Orleans.
1399: "le duc [de Bourgogne] se procure une autre tapisserie sur le même sujet au près du tapissier parisien Jean de Beaumetz"
Tapestry in New York Museum, likely from duke de Berry http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/medny/albertini3.html
15th century: rediscovered Fresco in chateaux of Villa Castelnuovo near Turin
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Il_ciclo_dei_Prodi_di_Villa_Castelnuovo
1407 (?): "Christine de Pisan mentionne sept preuses dans son catalogue de femmes illustres, La Cité des Dames"
Christine de Pisan uses only 7 preuse
ca. 1410: Lüneburg, Germany, window of glass with 9 heroes-cycle
1431: Part of Festivity arrangement (part of a triumphal march ?): Henri VI of England in Paris
1444: Part of Festivity arrangement: Jean de Heinsberg at Liège de
1458: Part of Festivity arrangement: Marie d'Albret at Nevers
ca. 1460: "Dans les années 1460, Sébastien Mamerot compose une Histoire des Neuf Preus et des Neuf Preues pour le gouverneur du Dauphiné, Louis de Laval"
1478: Misery (Switzerland), Herrensitz with Frescoes
1485: Festivity arrangement Charles VIII of France at Rouen
1496: Festivity arrangement: Jeanne de Castille at Bruxelles
1516: Hans Burgmair, copperplate engraving
see:
http://trionfi.com/0/i/c/OM/
left navigation, press 18 heroes
ca. 1550: Virgil Solis, copperplate engraving
unknown: combination of "les armes des preux dans un armorial de la Toison d'Or"
a further note: the 9 preuse had been somewhat floating (not always the same persons), in later variants Jean d'Arc was taken as a 10th preuse.
##############
Summarizing:
The entry of 1310 - 1312 might be well near to the place of origin. Liege (Belgium) is about 100 km of Aachen (place of Charlemain) and about 100 km of Antwerpen (place of Gottfried of Bouillon) ... so the whole is made with "local interest".
Parallel in time in France King Phillippe attacked the Templers (since 1307), in other words the "crusaders". The whole system looks in the context like a defense of the crusaders (so the Templers), so somehow it's not likely, that the system was made in France. The dedicated bishop of Liege Theobald (or Thibaut de Bar) is connected to the German king and emperor Henry (1308 - 1313), whose major work was a journey to Italy (where he died). Thibaut de Bar also died on this journey, accompanying the king.
King Henry came from Luxembourg and from him resulted the Luxembourgian dinasty with German Kings and Emperors from 1346 - 1437, which ruled, although coming from the West of the Empire (with French contacts) from the East of the Empire (mainly Prague).
From this region (Prague) we recently explored, that there were very early playing cards (ca. 1340), although there are not much trustable notes in other parts of Europe.
http://trionfi.com/0/p/95/
Between 1376 - 1378 Emperor Charles IV made 2 journeys tro the West, also to Paris. This is just the time, when playing cards became generally popular and this coincidence doesn't look accidently. Perhaps we have to add to this influences of Emperor Charles IV. also the neuf preux (but not the neuf preuse).
This would make the early appearances of the neuf preux (not the preuse) in German cities plausible. Also it's plausible, that Burgundy, near to the Eastern border of France and Germany first took the influence in France.
It's interesting, that the French idea with the neuf preuse were ready in 1387
(Livre des Leesce). This is about the time, when the French princes were ready to marry, Isabella of Bavaria and Valentina Visconti.
Unluckily I don't found much biography (or location) about this author Le Fevre, who must be differentiated from a later chronicler of Burgund with the same name.
I made some basic research to the object "neuf preux & neuf preuse" in the web. This both pages are informative:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuf_Preux
French Wikipedia-article
http://clio.revues.org/document1400.html
about Penthisilea (carpet-motif) of 16th century, but includes this good passage about the female parts (which were added later, after the male group already existed at the begin of 14th century):
"Le créateur de ce groupe de guerrières est sans doute Jehan Le Fèvre, officier au Parlement de Paris et auteur renommé en son temps, qui compose entre 1373 et 1387 le Livre de Lëesce, pour prendre la défense des femmes. "Dame Lëesce, personnification de la Joie, prend la parole pour défendre les femmes contre les auteurs misogynes qui multiplient leurs critiques. À celles-ci, elle oppose un véritable catalogue de femmes vertueuses, « les preudes femmes » mais aussi de femmes courageuses groupées sous la vertu de « prouesce », car elle assure que les femmes sont plus audacieuses, courageuses et vertueuses que les hommes. Pour choisir ses héroïnes, Jehan Le Fèvre s’est sans doute inspiré de romans antiques et en particulier de L’histoire ancienne jusqu’à César, une compilation d’histoire, écrite à partir de textes antiques et bibliques à la cour des châtelains de Lille au début du XIIIe siècle par un clerc anonyme. Elle présente une version courtoise et chevaleresque de l’histoire et de la mythologie antique, mettant en avant les personnages des Amazones. Eustache Deschamps reprend rapidement le motif des Neuf Preuses dans deux ballades, Il est temps de faire la paix, composée en 1387 et en 13969 un autre poème au titre révélateur Si les héros revenaient sur terre ils seraient étonnés. Christine de Pizan évoque sept des neuf preuses dans son catalogue de femmes illustres du Livre de la Cité des Dames. Dans son Livre du chevalier errant, Thomas III de Saluces évoque les Neuf Preux et les Neuf Preuses. Le thème littéraire des Neuf Preuses est illustré par Sébastien Mamerot qui compose en 1460 pour Louis de Laval, dont il est le chapelain, une Histoire des Neuf Preux et Neuf Preuses.
À l’instar de leurs pairs, les Neuf Preuses connaissent un immense succès qui trouve sa meilleure expression dans les représentations figurées. La tapisserie, art aristocratique par excellence, multiplie leurs images. Elles sont aussi présentes en sculpture. La première représentation de ce thème iconographique se trouve au château de Coucy. Une salle des Neuf Preuses y côtoie celle des Preux. Elle tient son nom d’une cheminée monumentale aménagée sous Enguerrand VII de Coucy vers 1387 et décorée des statues des neuf héroïnes13. Plus grandes que nature, ces statues, aujourd’hui disparues, ont été dessinées au XVIe siècle par Androuet du Cerceau et publiées dans ses Plus excellents bastiments de France. Les Preuses y ont déjà l’allure martiale de guerrières qu’elles vont conserver tout au long du Moyen Âge. Louis d’Orléans fait élever des statues monumentales des Preuses sur la façade de son château de La Ferté-Milon (Aisne), construite entre 1399 et son assassinat en 1407. Il existait également une cheminée sculptée des Preuses au château de Pierrefonds, construit sous l’égide de Louis d’Orléans à partir de 1396, mais totalement reconstruit par Viollet-le-Duc au XIXe siècle15. Les Preux et les Preuses sont également représentés dans le manuscrit enluminé du Chevalier errant de Thomas III de Saluces conservé à la Bibliothèque nationale : les Preuses y sont figurées suivant le canon habituel, richement vêtues, et armées de lances, épées et hallebardes. Valerano, fils bâtard de Thomas III de Saluces, suit la tradition familiale en faisant décorer entre 1411 et 1440 les murs Nord et Ouest de la grande salle de son château de la Manta d’une représentation des Neuf Preux et des Neuf Preuses, inspirée du roman de son père."
Here are some links to the castle of Manta:
http://www.italymag.co.uk/italy_reg...2007/arts/manta-castle-restorations-end-2009/
Restauration of Manta Castle till 2009
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerano_di_Saluzzo
Valerano di Saluzzo, illegitime son of Tommaso, reigned for his nephew Ludovivo, died 1443, commissioned the Manta castle pictures
http://www.uni-protokolle.de/nachrichten/id/26619/
Dissertation to the Roman in context to the Manta castle pictures (German language)
I extracted some data and sorted them in a time table, to have a better overview:
Male figures:
1310 - 1312: "Le motif des Neuf Preux apparaît pour la première fois dans Les Vœux du paon[1], roman en vers composé par Jacques de Longuyon qui sert de base à une mise en scène festive à Arras vers 1312"
"Jacques de Longuyon of Lorraine is the author of a chanson de geste, Les Voeux du paon (The Vows of the Peacock), written for Thibaut de Bar, bishop of Liège in 1312. It was one of the most popular romances of the 14th century, and introduces the concept of the Nine Worthies."
According to a note, captured somewhere (not necessarily true): "The hero of the poem is described as being more courageous than the nine great heroes of history". - so, according to the logic, somehow a tenth hero is involved.
http://www.artfact.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?lotCode=w6JHQfN1
gives some data to an edition sold by Sotheby's; the major story is about Alexander, the heroes are somehow mentioned.
Female figures:
Probable source for the 9 female figures (which are in their composition not similar stable as the 9 male figures): Jehan Le Fèvre, wrote 1373 - 1387) in "Livre de Lëesce"
; also Eustache Deschamps (ca. 1345 - 1405); Boccacchio in "De claris mulieribus"
Timetable
#######
late 14th century: 9 male sculptures at Saal of the Hanse, city council Cologne
1385-1396: Der "schöne Brunnen" in Nurremberg, shows 40 figures between them the 9 heroes. It's arranged in 4 stages: 1. Philosophy and 7 artes, 2. 4 evangelists and 4 fathers of the church, 3. 9 heroes and 7 Kurfürsten, 4. Moses and 7 prophets
(it's indicated, that there are other representations in other German cities of the time)
1387 "le thème apparaît en ornement sur des cheminées monumentales du château de Coucy"
1389: "un tapissier arriégeois, Jacques Dourdin, réalise un «grand tapis des Neuf Preux et Neuf Preuses » pour le duc de Bourgogne, Philippe le Hardi
1393: "Charles VI de France avait fait construire le château de Pierrefonds dont les neufs tours portaient chacune le nom d'un preux"
It has an "salle des preux" (no date)
1395-96: Chevalier errant written in prison by Tommaso di Saluzzo (rewritten ca. 1403-04 ?, realised by his illegimate son in Castle of Manta 1418 - 1430)
begin 15th century: "sur la façade du château de La Ferté-Milon". The chateau was made on the initiative of Louis d'Orleans.
1399: "le duc [de Bourgogne] se procure une autre tapisserie sur le même sujet au près du tapissier parisien Jean de Beaumetz"
Tapestry in New York Museum, likely from duke de Berry http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/medny/albertini3.html
15th century: rediscovered Fresco in chateaux of Villa Castelnuovo near Turin
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Il_ciclo_dei_Prodi_di_Villa_Castelnuovo
1407 (?): "Christine de Pisan mentionne sept preuses dans son catalogue de femmes illustres, La Cité des Dames"
Christine de Pisan uses only 7 preuse
ca. 1410: Lüneburg, Germany, window of glass with 9 heroes-cycle
1431: Part of Festivity arrangement (part of a triumphal march ?): Henri VI of England in Paris
1444: Part of Festivity arrangement: Jean de Heinsberg at Liège de
1458: Part of Festivity arrangement: Marie d'Albret at Nevers
ca. 1460: "Dans les années 1460, Sébastien Mamerot compose une Histoire des Neuf Preus et des Neuf Preues pour le gouverneur du Dauphiné, Louis de Laval"
1478: Misery (Switzerland), Herrensitz with Frescoes
1485: Festivity arrangement Charles VIII of France at Rouen
1496: Festivity arrangement: Jeanne de Castille at Bruxelles
1516: Hans Burgmair, copperplate engraving
see:
http://trionfi.com/0/i/c/OM/
left navigation, press 18 heroes
ca. 1550: Virgil Solis, copperplate engraving
unknown: combination of "les armes des preux dans un armorial de la Toison d'Or"
a further note: the 9 preuse had been somewhat floating (not always the same persons), in later variants Jean d'Arc was taken as a 10th preuse.
##############
Summarizing:
The entry of 1310 - 1312 might be well near to the place of origin. Liege (Belgium) is about 100 km of Aachen (place of Charlemain) and about 100 km of Antwerpen (place of Gottfried of Bouillon) ... so the whole is made with "local interest".
Parallel in time in France King Phillippe attacked the Templers (since 1307), in other words the "crusaders". The whole system looks in the context like a defense of the crusaders (so the Templers), so somehow it's not likely, that the system was made in France. The dedicated bishop of Liege Theobald (or Thibaut de Bar) is connected to the German king and emperor Henry (1308 - 1313), whose major work was a journey to Italy (where he died). Thibaut de Bar also died on this journey, accompanying the king.
King Henry came from Luxembourg and from him resulted the Luxembourgian dinasty with German Kings and Emperors from 1346 - 1437, which ruled, although coming from the West of the Empire (with French contacts) from the East of the Empire (mainly Prague).
From this region (Prague) we recently explored, that there were very early playing cards (ca. 1340), although there are not much trustable notes in other parts of Europe.
http://trionfi.com/0/p/95/
Between 1376 - 1378 Emperor Charles IV made 2 journeys tro the West, also to Paris. This is just the time, when playing cards became generally popular and this coincidence doesn't look accidently. Perhaps we have to add to this influences of Emperor Charles IV. also the neuf preux (but not the neuf preuse).
This would make the early appearances of the neuf preux (not the preuse) in German cities plausible. Also it's plausible, that Burgundy, near to the Eastern border of France and Germany first took the influence in France.
It's interesting, that the French idea with the neuf preuse were ready in 1387
(Livre des Leesce). This is about the time, when the French princes were ready to marry, Isabella of Bavaria and Valentina Visconti.
Unluckily I don't found much biography (or location) about this author Le Fevre, who must be differentiated from a later chronicler of Burgund with the same name.