Adam Smith and the Justice card

Raya

I've always had a bit of trouble interpreting the Justice card. I know it has to do with rationale and good choices, but I normally associate those things with Judgment. But I recently got a bit of inspiration on Justice from an unlikely source, Adam Smith.

Everyone remembers Adam Smith for writing /The Wealth of Nations/, but most people don't know that he was more than an economist, he was a moral philosopher, and his first book (a collection of his lectures) was /The Theory of Moral Sentiments/ in which he talks about the nature of virtue, merit, and other topics related to being "a good person". This book is where he introduces the idea of an "invisible hand" that guides people and larger systems such as societies and economies and lays the groundwork for /The Wealth of Nations/. He ends with a section entitled "Of Moral Philosophy" in which summarizes various philosophers' ideas on morality and gives his. I found one passage on Justice quite interesting. I was going to copy it here, but it's five pages or so, so I'm just going to put the link to the book here and if you're interested, the passage is on pp 330-335.

http://books.google.com/books?id=xV...resnum=4&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

In short, here the virtue of Justice has more to do with balancing the different parts of one's nature (the passions and reason) so that no one rules over all the others. My reading of it is that all aspects of our nature must be in balance in order for us to have a proper outlook on the world and make moral or "impartial" decisions. Since reading it, it's made me think differently about the Justice card.

Is this how any of you interpret Smith's ideas? Is it in line at all with how you interpret the Justice card?

ETA: If the link I put above is a little hard to read (with the old fashioned "s" that looks like an "f",) here's another link where you can view a PDF of the book in modern type. http://metalibri.wikidot.com/title:theory-of-moral-sentiments:smith-a
Click on the "printable" link and you can view the passage I was talking about on pp 251-254.
 

nisaba

Raya said:
Everyone remembers Adam Smith for writing /The Wealth of Nations/,
Gosh, do we?

Raya said:
but most people don't know that he was more than an economist, he was a moral philosopher, and his first book (a collection of his lectures) was /The Theory of Moral Sentiments/ in which he talks about the nature of virtue, merit, and other topics related to being "a good person". Since reading it, it's made me think differently about the Justice card.

Is this how any of you interpret Smith's ideas? Is it in line at all with how you interpret the Justice card?
I didn't even know he existed until right now. Not having read his books in full I can't comment on his ideas at all, but I think the picture of Justice that you've presented as *your* ideas, is an interesting and thoughtful one.
 

JSNYC

nisaba said:
Raya said:
Everyone remembers Adam Smith for writing /The Wealth of Nations/,
Gosh, do we?

Yes, we must have an economist here!

I know all about Adam Smith and his life and I am familiar with The Theory of Moral Sentiments but I haven't read it.

But f... f... f...

I tried to read the pages in that link you gave. I thought maybe it was real old english at first... then I realized, all the "s"s are replaced with "f"s. I continued to try and read it, mentally replacing the letters. But that didnt' work.

Adam Smith was all about economics. It was his dream. And in finance, Moral Sentiments is often referred to as meaning essentially, the capitalist system needs morality to survive but also that the capitalist system rewards, and thus promotes morality.

As far as the Justice card. The first thing that struck me when you said "balancing", is Temperance. So for me, the meanings are too close. I think of Justice more like Karma, you get what you deserve. It could be bad or good, depending on whether a wrong done to you is being repaid or whether a wrong you have done now requires repayment. And I view Judgement, not like "good judgement" but as a judgement, a final judgement as the card is also known. It is a redemption or reconciliation on a very personal level. Justice deals with more material and external things. Whereas judgement deals with things that affect you on a more personal or spirtual level. Things that don't really have a definition. Things where *justice* can never really be done.

But that is just my opinion. You have to choose the meaning that really makes sense to you.
 

Thirteen

nisaba said:
Gosh, do we?
Nisaba! Don't tell me you've forgotten all you learned in those classes you took on economics back when you were a teen! Why I remember being sixteen and quoting Allen Smith to my sweetheart as we hung out at the soda shop after class. Ah, Allen Smith. Many is the time I've read some Wealth of Nations before bead to soothe my troubled mind and help me to sleep....

;)
 

nisaba

Thirteen said:
Nisaba! Don't tell me you've forgotten all you learned in those classes you took on economics back when you were a teen! Why I remember being sixteen and quoting Allen Smith to my sweetheart as we hung out at the soda shop after class. Ah, Allen Smith. Many is the time I've read some Wealth of Nations before bead to soothe my troubled mind and help me to sleep....

;)
Economics wasn't a compulsory subject in Australia at the time, it was an elective, and not one that interested me so I didn't do it (ironically, I went on to work in the financial sector for a while after university). I don 't think I'd be quoting "Wealth of Nations" at anyone, but I *am* interested in ethics and philosophy (must be the Justice and Hermit cards in me!), so I'd probably like his other body of work ...

And in any case, wouldn't Australian economics teachers teach from Australian author-economists? Any Australians here who've studied high school economics?

But ... yes ... to try and get back on topic, I'm a Justice Kinda Girl, and always interested on any viewpoint I can find on the card.
 

Debra

In the time it took to write that, one could have learned quite a bit from wikipedia about the Scottish moral philosopher who died in 1790 and whose thinking is the main moral justification for free-market economics everywhere.
 

Debra

About Justice

Raya said:
In short, here the virtue of Justice has more to do with balancing the different parts of one's nature (the passions and reason) so that no one rules over all the others. My reading of it is that all aspects of our nature must be in balance in order for us to have a proper outlook on the world and make moral or "impartial" decisions.

To clarify, the idea of the Just Person as one with a balanced nature is from Plato's book The Republic.
 

Raya

Debra said:
To clarify, the idea of the Just Person as one with a balanced nature is from Plato's book The Republic.


Essentially. A friend of mine who's getting his Ph.D. in philosophy of religion told me that "the sum of Western philosophy is a reenactment of Plato's Republic" (or something witty to that effect.)

JSNYC- He was about much more than economics. He was the professor of moral philosophy at the University of Glasgow, making him a scholar in philosophy, ethics, natural theology, as well as economics and political theory. He must have been a near genius. I get what you're saying about balance and the Temperance card, but Justice holds the scales in most Rider-Waite clones, indicating balance. In my mind a lot of cards' interpretations overlap, and I think this is an example. Personally, I liked the idea of the figure of Justice balancing feeling and intellect, and also wielding the sword representing logic and clear thinking to perceive things accurately and impartially and making fair and intelligent judgments. To me, Justice and Judgment are inexorably linked, while Temperance represents more of a balanced way of life-- the middle path, everything in moderation, and all that jazz.

I also liked the part where Smith says (I'm paraphrasing here) by putting our passions and reason in balance, we're doing justice to ourselves, recognizing the value of each of our "mental faculties" equally, instead of being told to use our reason to discipline our "earthly passions and appetites," which is what I was expecting him to say.

How do other people think of Justice, Temperance, and Judgment? If I'm not mistaken, aren't they sometimes grouped together as the "virtue cards" or some such thing? Or am I getting confused with something else?
 

Gypsyspell

Ive have also read historically the justice scales used in the weighing of who has the most money-not really justice at all when the guilty,who is wealthiest has the reprieve-with the use of the blindfold ,the other symbol .
Today it is corruption/cover-up?
 

Glitterbird

I have always thought of Justice as when others judge you. And Judgement when you are judging yourself (over-simplified)