Archetypes

truthsayer

talisman,
when you elaborated on the meaning to be that of an oracle, soothsayer or whatever, i agree that that does put what you are saying into the realm of the archetype. i think all early ppls had some type of shaman or oracle to help guide them in spiritual matters that would lead the oracle to become a part of the collective unconsious. now i'm trying to decide what tarot card defines what that would be. i think that the hierphant prob would if we take out any negative connotations the card symbolizes to some of us. i think the hierphant reps more than religious authority. i think it's unchristianized meaning would be that of a spiritual mentor, oracle, soothsayer or guide. perhaps a wise man like the hermit.

this is a really interesting thread, talisman. i don't find your question stupid at all. sometimes it's the simplest questions that are the most thought provoking b/c it leads us to more fully examine truths we may have taken for granted.
 

nexyjo

if an archetype is defined in terms of a "universal" consciousness, i have to believe that the idea of a specific culture comes into play. depending on whose doing the defining, that cultgure puts different "twists" on what exactly that archetype represents. because the person or persons doing the defining have already been ingrained with their own cultural background, they have a certain and specific idea of what each archetype represents, and that may very well be different to some degree as compared to people from different cultures. i also think the idea of stereotypes might heavily influence archetypes, though i'd venture to guess that many would not agree with that.

as one example, the idea of "god" - or more specifically, the creator of the universe, is certainly an archetype. yet depending on the specific religion in which one was brought up, that archetype can be quite different. and further, can change significantly as we grow and gain more experience.

christians might have one idea of god, and to those around them also brought up in the christian religions, it's pretty universal. yet even jews, who use part of the same bible, would see god differently. in this example, the jew may see god as the entity who chose him as "his chosen people", and that has a major influence on how he sees god. while the christian may recognize the jew as one of god's chosen people, as it clearly states that in both bibles, the christian may argue that the new testiment sheds a completely different light on the people of the earth, and if one doesn't accept jesus, one is not truely "chosen", and will burn in hell. further, jesus takes on a huge role in the christian god, as part of a trinity. yet jews see no such trinity in the archetype that is god.

if one wants to suggest that perhaps god is too broad a term as an archetype, the archetype of "mother" offers another example. for a poor child brought up by a single mother, the term mother is more encompasing that for a child brought up by both parents. the single mother is everything, head of the household, and of the family, whose authority has no question. in the married family, the father is the head of the household (at least most commonly), and can be thought of as an even higher authority than the mother. these cultural and environmental influences color each person's idea of what any specific archetype represents, and i don't think that can be argued.

as yet another example, "the lover" can have numerious manifestations, with some varities coming from the sexual orientation of the person, and even the sex of the person. some may see tenderness, others may see partnership, and still others may see sexual interaction as the primary attribute of this archetype.

perhaps combining the entire collection of ideas of what a specific archetype represents makes up an archetype, but then, it's still different for each person.

sorry, went into over analysis mode there...

luv and light,
nexy
 

purplelady

nexyjo.............perhaps the archetype remains the same,but each person , being unique,having different backround and experience, Uses or sees the archetype in their own unique way,or even mixes 'em up a little bit!Maybe they even create a new one! For instance, lets say both you and I each own a copy of the universal-waite deck , the images are technically the same deck , but we veiw and use and read those images unique to ourselves ..............In the same way , the archetype of "mother" or "hermit" exists in the collective unconscious, to come alive and "speak" to someone's conscious or unconscious in a unique way that only that person experiences. Yet , we both have in common the collective archetypes,perhaps like books in some unconscious library.
 

purplelady

In that sense, take 3 seperate people, one who's mother died at their birth , another raised by a single mom , and another raised by mom and dad.The archetype"mother" remains the same , But perhaps each of our 3 people experience a different face, or aspect of Her. The same way god is one god (supposedly) but everyone experiences their own unique veiw of god,because he (or she) is So vast that our brains could not comprehend but a small portion. Or the triple goddess is really 3 aspects of one goddess. The "mother" archetype might speak to each of our 3 in a different way , Yet she is still the mother archetype...........She is not really a stereotype, which is something more of the outside or society.She is as alive as the past , the future, your dreams................
 

Talisman

Nexy, purplelady,

I think this is interesting, and I think you have both touched on the idea of an archetype that crosses all cultures.

Well, Nexyjo talks about god, the creator of the universe. Is there any culture, anywhere in the history of the world, that doesn't have some kind of creation myth?

Sorry, I've just read a biography about Crazy Horse, a Lakota, and it made me think.

Can't we all agree that that is archetype number one? And mother? And, after we invented cause and effect, father?

But, I think the second man in the world, wandering around Oldavia Gorge, found a penny laying in the sand. He picked it up. And flipped it.

And waited to see if it would land heads or tail.

Talisman
 

New River

Talisman, great thread! i'm wondering if what everyone is boiling down to is the concept that archetypes do cross all culture lines; although the thought and image may be projected in many different ways. just like the god and mother archetypes? and don't angels do that too?

doesn't every culture show some artistic rendition of a guardian angel? i don't know this for sure, so i'm asking.

love, light and happiness, New River
 

Major Tom

Quote:purplelady (28 Aug, 2001 03:52):
nexyjo.............perhaps the archetype remains the same,but each person , being unique,having different backround and experience, Uses or sees the archetype in their own unique way,or even mixes 'em up a little bit!Maybe they even create a new one! For instance, lets say both you and I each own a copy of the universal-waite deck , the images are technically the same deck , but we veiw and use and read those images unique to ourselves ..............In the same way , the archetype of "mother" or "hermit" exists in the collective unconscious, to come alive and "speak" to someone's conscious or unconscious in a unique way that only that person experiences. Yet , we both have in common the collective archetypes,perhaps like books in some unconscious library.

Indeed we do all relate to the archtypes in our own individual ways }> That is precisely how Major Tom's tarot was born - as an individual journey. The universal truth here is that we all live in our own worlds. }>