Question about the LBRP

[Zephyros]

I'm trying to get this thing down, as a first step to (hopefully) other things, and something has already stumped me. I'm studying from DuQuette's "Magick of Thelema" and he says that when drawing the pentagrams invocation is towards the element, while banishment is away from it, and that the directions are those familiar to me already (earth lower left, fire lower right, etc.).

Thinking myself clever, I tried drawing them in my notebook, and I got it right as far as towards and away is concerned, but not the directions from which this is done. This may be a silly question, but is the "rule" to invoke from above and banish from below? I drew Earth being invoked from Water, which I see by the diagram is wrong. Earth is invoked from Spirit, above, and is properly sent back there. Is that how it goes? If so, can Water be invoked from Air? And Air invoked from Water? Why? How?

 

[Zephyros]

Does any of this even matter? I'm guessing it does, as I prefer to understand what is being done...

 

[ravenest]

I suppose that depends on wether you see validity in the 'tradition of a movement'... in that movement itself, as if a particular movement has some sort of cause and effect overall OR you see validity in the movement as a type of mnemonic that fits in with your own understanding and rationale (one's 'magical view of the Universe').

In the first I often see discrepancies, so that sort of invalidates it for me (unless the twists and turns in the philosophy to validate it accords with my magical view of the Universe ). I also have concerns about the first viewpoint a it borders on a literalist interpretation ( a no no in my book).

I use a mix of both; start from the traditional and add my own adaptations ... as long as it is still in the zone. By this I mean, if one is experimenting, keep within the parameters of the experiment (and ones magical view) E.g. A student who was learning the LBRP came to me very excited about his innovation, he switched things around and did a fire invoking pentagram at each quarter and was raving about his vision of being surrounded by fire. I told him he was 'off chops'. he got a little offended and blasted me for being rigid and critical of his experience ... until I pointed out I did that as his original intention was to get good at a banishing ritual and now he obviously was working with a fire invocation and still couldn't do the banishing ritual properly (to his own satisfaction).

 

[Zephyros]

...you see validity in the movement as a type of mnemonic that fits in with your own understanding and rationale (one's 'magical view of the Universe').

This one, I suppose. With my background in Tarot I more or less see the logic of certain things, for example the placement of the Kerubic beasts made it easier to understand the placement of the elements, etc., so I have a certain associative connection (my studies of recent years) but I suppose that is why I am asking. Why are the two upper elements invoked one from the other? I mean, I could understand if the answer was simply because they had no place else to be invoked from, the pentagram being what it is, but is that the answer?

I plan to make a trial run starting tomorrow, and in the beginning these things are done "theatrically" anyhow (until they are assimilated), so it isn't the end of the world if I don't have it all down beforehand.

ETA: I suppose we can talk freely, I already asked Grigori to move this thread into the Golden Dawn section, I posted here automatically from habit.

 

[ravenest]

I will have a go at a detailed technical answer for you (but it will probably make things worse )

I'm trying to get this thing down, as a first step to (hopefully) other things, and something has already stumped me. I'm studying from DuQuette's "Magick of Thelema" and he says that when drawing the pentagrams invocation is towards the element, while banishment is away from it, and that the directions are those familiar to me already (earth lower left, fire lower right, etc.).

Well, firstly banishing and invoking other elements is not part of the LBRP. If you want to work with that ritual first it is banishing earth ... and that is it, on all quarters.

Liber O is obscure on this point but not many address it; first we have (in Liber O) a description of some movements then a header GBRP then some pentagram with arrows and virtually no descriptive texts ... It is assumed one puts it together from what is written earlier in Liber O ?

In any case I agree with the first basic DuQuette says - it makes basic sense; away : banish, towards : invoke. But he is being careful with wording; yes that is right ... for an element (but is spirit an element? If we don't mention it there is no problem also if we just say away from and towards it there is no problem ... until we add 'away from and towards wha't and/or 'to but from where'? Okay lets just comment on the things simply in a book and everyone will assume it is correct ... until they try it out? YOU my dear sir have all the makings of a magical trouble maker !!! )

Thinking myself clever, I tried drawing them in my notebook, and I got it right as far as towards and away is concerned, but not the directions from which this is done.

Unclear what you mean with 'the directions from which it is done'? Do you mean because any point has two lines coming from it, which line does one take?

This may be a silly question, but is the "rule" to invoke from above and banish from below?

Unclear again ; above, below? ... do you mean to invoke draw the line from a point that is a in a higher position in the pentagram? or is that a general statement. Sorry I found some wording confusing ... it could be me ... 'fuzzy' today.

I drew Earth being invoked from Water, which I see by the diagram is wrong.

So; why did you do that ... a variation, a mistake ... ?

Earth is invoked from Spirit, above, and is properly sent back there. Is that how it goes?

Yes, I see it that way.

If so, can Water be invoked from Air? And Air invoked from Water? Why? How?

Because that is the way it is in the book . How does one's 'magical view of the Universe' justify it? Mine does by seeing air as the 'Mercurius' of water and fire ... if we mix them we get steam (or various gasses) which is of the nature of air, therefore water comes from air ... as does fire; water and fire make air so air contains water and fire; 0=2 therefore 2=0.

But that is just my take on it. One could invoke an element from spirit, to fire to water to air to earth but ... that doesn't work in order on the pentagram. The 'rule' seems to be (when one looks at the pentagram elemental attributions and the diagrams in Liber O) invoke from spirit and banish back there ... but one cant do that on the horizontal air / water line can one?)

But look at the invoking and banishing spirit active and passive ... what's the reason behind that??? Where is it written about ... anywhere?

I have my own way of working that, but one doesn't usually invoke or banish spirit IME. One usually works with the 4 elements.

Often we find discrepancies like these, also not explained or not written about ... I wonder why that is??? As you have found out, if you ACTUALLY start WORKING with the rituals things pop up (e.g. but if my double cube altar IS that ratio size and the Tau is formed from that ratio then I cant fit it in my circle ) I often wonder if the commentators in book ('experts') have actually DONE the rituals?

I am sure DuQuette has ... but he skips over the problems.

Hope my comments helped. Perhaps someone else has a view on this active / passive spirit pentagram drawing? The only thing I can come up with is that the top 'spirit point' of the pentagram is used in the fire and earth invoking and banishing and if one tried to use that for spirit they might invoke or banish earth or fire ??? Maybe makes sense as invoking active or passive spirit is rare?

Then one is left as an alternative: invoke active spirit by first drawing from spirit to fire and passive from spirit to earth? But then one is left with invoking earth from water (Which is why maybe you did it that way in the first place? Did you come to that conclusion or fluke it? )

Personally I prefer to reassign the elements to other points ... but we better not go there!

 

[Aeon418]

Does any of this even matter? I'm guessing it does, as I prefer to understand what is being done...

It might help your intelectual understanding later on, but it's got nothing to do with the LBRP. The LBRP is not a specific elemental banishing rite. It's not even a banishment of 'earth', despite the fact that it appears to use the earth form of the pentagram.

The Lesser Ritual of the Pentagram has a generic banishing form and a generic invoking form. These are known as the LBRP and the LIRP. Both of these rituals use the 'earth form' pentagram, but neither of these rituals is an earth ritual per se. (This point sometimes causes confusion.) This is the form of the ritual you are starting to work with right now.

A later specialisation of the Lesser Ritual of the Pentagram is to use it to invoke or banish particular elements. (Example the LIR of Fire, or the LBR of Earth.) The ritual is virtually identical except that the pentagrams are drawn differently, the visualization of the colours is different, and the intent is different. This comes latter though after you've got the LBRP and LIRP down pat.

General Forms:

1a.) Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram - LBRP: General purpose banishing ritual. (Uses 'earth form' banishing pentagram visualised in bluish-white light. Not earth per se.)

1b.) Lesser Invoking Ritual of the Pentagram - LIRP: General purpose invocation ritual. (Uses 'earth form' invoking pentagram visualised in bluish-white light. Not earth per se.)

Specific elemental forms:

2a.) Lesser Banishing/Invoking of Fire: Red pentagrams - invoking or banishing Fire form depending on intent.

2b.) Lesser Banishing/Invoking of Water: Blue pentagrams - invoking or banishing Water form depending on intent.

2c.) Lesser Banishing/Invoking of Air: Yellow pentagrams - invoking or banishing Air form depending on intent.

2d.) Lesser Banishing/Invoking of Earth: Black or Green pentagrams - invoking or banishing Earth form depending on intent.

(Note that even though the LBRP and LIRP use the earth form of the pentagram, the visualisation colour - bluish white light - is wrong for earth. It's not an earth ritual. It just uses the earth form of the pentagram for a different purpose. Understand this point and you will save yourself a lot of trouble later on.)

 

[Zephyros]

Thank you for your responses. I can see I was getting a little ahead of myself, and am beginning to understand both why the LBRP is both so fundamental, and the first ritual learned. Trying to learn all the pentagrams at once without any actual practice can be unnerving

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0GW0Vnr9Yc
(Scene from the movie Airplane)

 

[ravenest]

Love that scene

Like I said to my friend who was immersed in a vision of fire ... ermmm ... you were supposed to be learning the LBRP.

Is there a text source for these coloured pentagrams ... or was that just common sense?

Any thoughts on the original questions (Ignoring the thread title) re. the methods of DRAWING these pentagrams (aside from what ritual they belong to or what colour they should be) ?

 

[Aeon418]

Is there a text source for these coloured pentagrams ... or was that just common sense?

I was taught the ritual that way. But I'm sure it's somewhere in the Golden Dawn papers.

Any thoughts on the original questions (Ignoring the thread title) re. the methods of DRAWING these pentagrams (aside from what ritual they belong to or what colour they should be) ?

I'm sure I've got something on this but need to dig it out.

General thoughts (for closrapexa): pick a particular pentagram drawing method and stick with it. You're trying to imprint you're subconcious with a particular symbol set. Chopping and changing won't help that process.

I remember one guy who used to agonize about little details like this. One week he was sold on the Golden Dawn method. Then it was the Aurum Solis technique that was correct. Next time it was some sort of 'home brew' of his own creation. I must have told over a dozen times that it didn't really matter which scheme he picked as long as he was consistent.

In one ear, out the other.

 

[ravenest]

I have never seen that in GD papers ... sound like an individual interpretation ... although it makes sense ... I am not sure if it invalidates the LBRP as a banishing ritual on that point though.

Of course it doesn't REALLY matter ... a long as one's magical view of the universe is internally consistent i.e. one has a valid reason for it within ones own internal 'logic' . Instead of declaring; that's just the way it is, its a tradition, its a mystery ... I want to know that internal logic of the line drawing for the elements in the pentagram, especially the spirit point.

And THAT is the hard info to find (except for the generalisations that don't cover all bases, or only cover the bases they are talking about and LEAVE OUT THE ONES that are the exception by subtly of language* ... like DuQutte's invoke towards, banish away from).

So for me (and perhaps C, ) the issue isn't one of NOT realising what IS important but one of wanting to know WHY ... if someone makes a declaration that a thing should be a certain way they should be able to justify that with an explanation that is internally consistent within their own system.

* Crowley seems to do the opposite if this in Liber Chanok ... the most confusing piece written ... at first ... after a while one can see that the bare stripping down and subtle use of exact language has actually explained everything very well ... after one has 'got it'. Maybe the difficulty here ( in Chanok) is we are so unconsciously used to the opposite?