Question about the LBRP

Aeon418

So for me (and perhaps C, ) the issue isn't one of NOT realising what IS important but one of wanting to know WHY ... if someone makes a declaration that a thing should be a certain way they should be able to justify that with an explanation that is internally consistent within their own system.

Maybe the 'why' is not particularly deep or important. For instance the Aurum Solis pentagrams are drawn clockwise from an element to invoke, and counter clockwise from an element to banish. And that's as far as it goes.

With the Golden Dawn scheme they wanted a system that kept the lines between the two active and passive elements reserved for Spirit. Everything else had to fit around that, even if it did leave two elements being invoked and banished by identical movements. As long as the colours and intent are different I don't see a problem.
 

ravenest

Well, that's a possible why (in both cases) - thankyou.

Its rather disheartening (or would be if I was a newcomer to the subject) to think that magical teachers or orders didnt consider the 'why' deep or important.

Reminds me of school; "Put your hand down and stop asking why ... just learn it !"

For the intellectually demanding curious ones, the answer to the why is a powerful adjunct to all the colours, actions, symbols, directions, knocks, tools, designs, etc. that we use in ritual and myth and any encounter with the daemonic world (of course the answer to questions in these areas doesn't have to conform to scientifically rational literalism).

I was never interested in a student that just accepted what I taught at face value. I encouraged to ask why ... if I didn't have an answer we would brain storm it together and try to find one.

The only thing that no answer gives me (or an obscure unexplained answer or an irrational answer {in the terms of the system}, or a declaration that that is just the way it is and stop asking why) is suspicion.
 

Aeon418

Its rather disheartening (or would be if I was a newcomer to the subject) to think that magical teachers or orders didnt consider the 'why' deep or important.

Reminds me of school; "Put your hand down and stop asking why ... just learn it !"

In this instance I don't think it really matters all that much. It's a method that's meant to absorbed and practiced to make it effective. Complex intellectual justifications are merely an overlay that act like a 'babies pacifier' for the mind when it starts crying whhhhhyyyy!.

With the Golden Dawn pentagram system you just need to get the 'towards - invoke' 'away - banish' pattern rooted in your mind. Likewise with the hexagrams - clockwise invokes, anticlockwise banishes. It's the pattern and intent that are important to the subconscious, not rationalizations.
 

Zephyros

In this instance I don't think it really matters all that much. It's a method that's meant to absorbed and practiced to make it effective. Complex intellectual justifications are merely an overlay that act like a 'babies pacifier' for the mind when it starts crying whhhhhyyyy!.

At this beginning stage, I can certainly accept that. But if the LBRP isn't a banishing ritual, then what is it? I thought that was its purpose, to clear one's environment of unnecessary magickal pollution, both on its own and as an overture to other rituals.

Just don't tell me I am "unworthy to possess it." :)
 

Aeon418

But if the LBRP isn't a banishing ritual, then what is it?

It is a banishing ritual. But it's also much more than that. In essence it's a little self contained invocation of the HGA. This is most apparent during the formulation of the hexagram in the column and the resultant influx of LVX, but this is implied throughout.

Here's a couple more points provided by Eshelman that may prove useful and get you looking at the ritual in a different way.

Jim Eshelman said:
While this is a very personal thing - everyone needs to find his or her own formula - here are a couple of categories of approach.

(1) Remember the advice given to the Probationer never to assume that the name of any god refers to any god at all except that which is most intimately and personally known to oneself. That is (in this sense), understand that every Divine Name vibrated is simply a different aspect of one's HGA, and see where that leads you.

(2) Every mathematical detail of the pentagram is an expression of the HGA and one's relationship thereto. In the broadest sense, the pentagram (in the ratios of the different parts of the five lines) is the best mathematical expression of the Golden Mean, which mathematically expresses that "the lesser is to the greater as the greater is to the whole" - essentially, "That which is above is like unto that which is below," etc. Those well experienced in the pentagram ritual are mindfully invoking the relationship of oneself to the HGA with every stroke of the finger or sword. - At a more complex level, these mathematical ratios end up expressing the gematria values of every Divine Name used in the ritual. It's all very tightly connected, and every gesture or breath ends up being an invocation of the Divine.
 

ravenest

Complex intellectual justifications are merely an overlay that act like a 'babies pacifier' for the mind when it starts crying whhhhhyyyy!.

I wasn't talking about complex intellectual justifications though was I ? To give that statement to an enquiring student with a simple and justified curiosity 'why is it so' seems to exaggerate their question, be demeaning and pompous and the very thing that turns people of seeking instruction from a group or order ... just as well I am no longer an enquiring student ;)

With the Golden Dawn pentagram system you just need to get the 'towards - invoke' 'away - banish' pattern rooted in your mind. Likewise with the hexagrams - clockwise invokes, anticlockwise banishes. It's the pattern and intent that are important to the subconscious, not rationalizations.

I think we all realise that ... it keeps coming back to that ... we got that ... its just that there IS a bit extra ... if one is curious (but not demanding complex intellectual justifications).
 

ravenest

Aeon418 said:
The LBRP is not a specific elemental banishing rite.

Do you have an example of a 'specific elemental banishing rite' ? I am not having a go or issuing a challenge .. just curious ... ;)


Aeon 418 said:
It's not even a banishment of 'earth'

Aeon 418 said:
It is a banishing ritual

Now I'm having a go :)
 

Aeon418

Do you have an example of a 'specific elemental banishing rite' ? I am not having a go or issuing a challenge .. just curious ... ;)

Erm.... you must have skimmed my first post in this thread. I gave four examples of how the Lesser Ritual can be adapted to invoke or banish a particular element.

Of course if you want to go one step further and integrate it with Spirit you use the GRP instead.

Now I'm having a go :)

That's quite alright. :) You appear to be confused on this point. Earlier in this thread you said: "If you want to work with that ritual first it is banishing earth ... and that is it, on all quarters." This is a common misconception.

As I've already said the LBRP uses the 'earth form' of the pentagram but it's use here is as a general purpose banishing pentagram. It is not targeted at the specific element of earth. The LRP can be adapted that way, as it can be for all the other elements, but those rites are not the LBRP per se.
 

ravenest

You appear to be confused on this point. Earlier in this thread you said: "If you want to work with that ritual first it is banishing earth ... and that is it, on all quarters." This is a common misconception.

As I've already said the LBRP uses the 'earth form' of the pentagram but it's use here is as a general purpose banishing pentagram. It is not targeted at the specific element of earth.

Well ... I cant find where Liber O or other texts agree with you.

But , okay then ... "it is A banishing earth PENTAGRAM and that is it, on all quarters" (for an LBRP as that what the OP was asking about).

I meant that is what you do ... you do an earth banishing pentagram on all quarters for a LBRP - which is a banishing form of the LRP which, in Liber O, says to do an earth pentagram at all directions. If it is a LBRP then that earth pentagram will be a banishing one. Is that confused?

It seems to be splitting hairs between assuming;

the earth banishing pentagram is a general banishing pentagram when used in the LBRP

and

banishing earth is general banishing in the LBRP.

If it is a misconception, and not a hair split, no wonder it is a COMMON misconception ... it would be good if all the extra info was included in Liber O ... is it AA instruction or scattered around in other writings that one has to hunt down? If it is such a central ritual why put out such a scant jotted down memo on it ? (No I don't expect you to answer that.)

Liber O says , for a LRP to make a pentagram of earth at each quarter if one follows Liber O that is what one does , if one wants to add a B; LBRP one does an earth banishing pentagram at each quarter .... there is no instruction that says; but note- this earth banishing pentagram is not actually an earth one it is a general one. Is there? Maybe somewhere? There is no directions in GRP about colour is there? It is Liber O that has created misconceptions if these are valid points, as Liber O doesn't mention them.

The only distinction in LIber O between the GRP and the LRP is the GRP adds grade signs and includes other elements than earth.

The LRP can be adapted that way, as it can be for all the other elements.

Do you mean go against the instruction in Liber O and not make each pentagram an earth pentagram but make them different elements ... and leave out the grade signs.

That certainly doesn't go with Liber O.

That would be the only difference then between the two, the leaving out of grade signs. That's not a LRP that's a GRP minus the grade signs ... why?

Again LRP says earth banishing pentagrams at each quarter. Now you are telling us to just add other element pentagrams to the LRP.

Or are you saying the LRP can be used to I or B any element for people who don't have a grade but the GRP is for people that do. That certainly isn't in Liber O. If it is a special AA teaching how are those supposed to know who don't have a grade sign that the LRP is for all the other elements as well as they wouldn't have source to the info.

This is sounding more like a teacher's or order's or AA specific take on these rituals.

Not that that isn't valid ... but if there are misconceptions about these rituals it is because the details were concealed... or maybe just scattered around in various sources.

(I'd still like to know the colour for the pentagram reference, I have been looking but cant find it.)

And I cant find where the earth pentagram in the LBRP is supposed to be bluish white ... it also doesn't say that in Liber O.