Spiritual Elitism

satine

Sophie-David said:
But I remember that there is a lot of truth in that childhood taunt, "It takes one to know one". The general lack of spirituality and rites of passage within our culture is not conducive to finding the way.

I regret if I did not indicate that this is a continuous process, although I think I did mention the cycles of descent and ascent that go with it.

It takes one to know one. ha! :) I love it. Oh, Sophie-David, please don't think that my use of "caps lock" was to suggest that you did not include a reference to continuation within the process we were discussing. That was not my intention. It's only that I don't know how to do italics or anything else within this forum, so I am left with caps as my only option to show emphasis. ;)


Milfoil, I suppose some people are just more philosophical and analytical than others, but I agree that sometimes there is perfection in simplicity. Reminds me of the book The Tao of Pooh, which illustrates this perspective wonderfully. (Oh, there I go again...) I recall one time when my father, a college professor who tends to be as analytical as I, told his European sports car mechanic every good point and bad point of a car he was dealing with. After about an hour of my dad going back and forth with the pros and cons of this car, the mechanic eloquently offered his first and only comment: "It's a piece of sh*t." My dad had to laugh, because this conclusion was the absolute truth. Period. :)
 

Sophie-David

satine said:
It takes one to know one. ha! :) I love it. Oh, Sophie-David, please don't think that my use of "caps lock" was to suggest that you did not include a reference to continuation within the process we were discussing. That was not my intention. It's only that I don't know how to do italics or anything else within this forum, so I am left with caps as my only option to show emphasis. ;)
Even my silly puppy ego was not concerned about this! (or if he was he's forgotten about it completely :eek:) We are here to discuss things openly but respectfully, and it is important to bring out the things we are personally most concerned with. I thought it was great that you emphasied the need for continuation in the process.
 

Milfoil

Sophie David said:
I think not quite a balance, which to me implies a compromise, but a new thing, the third which transcends the duality.

I think you may be right in some respects, even to the point where last night I dreamed of being cornered and then stepping out to hit a man who was laughing at me! (SO not me in real life). Fear, anger, overcoming fear, ego - heck, the whole gamut was there!!

satine said:
Milfoil, I suppose some people are just more philosophical and analytical than others, but I agree that sometimes there is perfection in simplicity.

I think you possibly mean Mingbop but I agree anyway. :) I do feel that we can over complicate matters sometimes and the 'child-like way' has often been advocated by gurus and teachers the world over. Again, this is something relevant to me right now. Stepping back, not complicating matters, just doing instead of endless analysing. It feels odd but at the same time right.

Its almost a paradox, to be here is to strive to understand it all yet the more we know, the less we truly understand and the only perfect way of being is that of a newborn. I don't have the words to adequately put this all down but perhaps you know what I mean?
 

satine

Milfoil said:
I think you possibly mean Mingbop but I agree anyway. :)

Its almost a paradox, to be here is to strive to understand it all yet the more we know, the less we truly understand and the only perfect way of being is that of a newborn. I don't have the words to adequately put this all down but perhaps you know what I mean?

Oh, yes- I did mean "Mingbop"-- our Scottish friend who says we're all making it too complicated. Could be true. ;)

I do know what you mean about the paradox. It's absolutely ironic how much effort it takes for some of us to reach this level of childlike simplicity. Yet to be exactly like a child is certainly not the goal, because adults also have to take responsibility (in every respect) and must be aware that the world does not revolve around them. Assimilating adult requirements with a childlike heart and approach to life may be the part of this process that is most challenging.
 

Sophie-David

satine said:
I do know what you mean about the paradox. It's absolutely ironic how much effort it takes for some of us to reach this level of childlike simplicity. Yet to be exactly like a child is certainly not the goal, because adults also have to take responsibility (in every respect) and must be aware that the world does not revolve around them. Assimilating adult requirements with a childlike heart and approach to life may be the part of this process that is most challenging.
Yes, absolutely!
 

starrystarrynight

mingbop said:
I think you're all making things complicated when you don't need to. We all have egos and we all have to learn to live with them, achieve a balance...
Yup, yup, yup, yup! It seems sometimes that some finder it harder to find that balance and it comes across as elitism which may or may not be intentional.

Also, if you consider the Internet's absense of proximal energy (when you are talking about forum talk in this light)...there is none to "play off of" and have an in-time conversation. Time has always elapsed by the time one gets to read and respond to a post (this may have been mentioned--I didn't read through the whole thread. My bad.) As well, you can't see the responder's face, inflection in his voice, and the like.

And frankly, many of us don't write very well--at least can't get across the exact idea we may mean at the time. (Else, we'd all be best-selling authors!)

I'm rambling. I'll shut up now.
 

Sophie-David

starrystarrynight said:
Yup, yup, yup, yup! It seems sometimes that some finder it harder to find that balance and it comes across as elitism which may or may not be intentional.

Also, if you consider the Internet's absense of proximal energy (when you are talking about forum talk in this light)...there is none to "play off of" and have an in-time conversation. Time has always elapsed by the time one gets to read and respond to a post (this may have been mentioned--I didn't read through the whole thread. My bad.) As well, you can't see the responder's face, inflection in his voice, and the like.

And frankly, many of us don't write very well--at least can't get across the exact idea we may mean at the time. (Else, we'd all be best-selling authors!)

I'm rambling. I'll shut up now.
I'm not meaning any offense, but this does makes me smile. If this is all true I wonder why we would bother to come here and read or discuss anything at all? :)

This is definitely going off topic, but my experience of proximal energy is that it is has nothing to do with location, and neither does time. But that is definitely the subject for another discussion - or not. :D

BTW, I don't think anyone in this thread was specifically referring to the forum as providing examples of spiritual elitism.
 

starrystarrynight

sophie-david said:
This is definitely going off topic, but my experience of proximal energy is that it is has nothing to do with location, and neither does time. But that is definitely the subject for another discussion - or not.
You know, I probably picked the wrong term here, as my brain is a little fried right now, and I thought I was just being descriptive in picking the term, "proximal energy", not knowing it was an actual term! :D

What I meant to stress (and I guess my post makes it clear) that not being right next to a subject at the moment one is doing a reading makes cold reading more unlikely...that's all. And then getting it down in print form when doing an online reading can definitely change the nuance of what one may be trying to get across.

Nothing to do with a "time is linear?...spiral? circular?...or not?" type of discussion. (What is that, anyway...quantum physics or something?)

I shouldn't try to discuss when I'm incapacitated...:)
 

Milfoil

Ressurecting this thread with a quote from the article in question:

Being a grown-up on the spiritual plane means no longer playing small. We drop our superficiality and pettiness, get over our wounds, realise our fears and insecurities, abandon notions of entitlement and lose our enchantment with cheap drama. No more games, passive-aggressive behaviour, attacking or power obsession. We're simply just done with it. We cut the crap. We get our heads out of the spiritual books we've read for years and go our and live what is in them.

We get our hands dirty and do for others, yet never with a sense that we are special for doing so. It just becomes how we approach life every day, for we know that the hour is late indeed. . .

This last quote really had me thinking about how it can seem impossible to make an effort to change what seems to be like an overwhelming tide of a problem when our tiny contribution doesn't seem to even make a ripple in the surface but we forget that it isn't about us. When our tiny efforts join up with others, it becomes the force that CAN change things. The whole being greater than the sum of it's parts.

Where, however, would you say that we draw the line between not hurting others and standing up for our integrity as we see it? I struggle with this (as you all probably know! sorry) and realise that none of us are perfect but struggle with knowing when to stand up and say "this doesn't feel right" or just sitting back and not making waves.

I wish life came with a manual . . .
 

BodhiSeed

Thanks for resurrecting this thread - I missed the article before, and it definitely gave me some things to mull over.

Where, however, would you say that we draw the line between not hurting others and standing up for our integrity as we see it? I struggle with this (as you all probably know! sorry) and realise that none of us are perfect but struggle with knowing when to stand up and say "this doesn't feel right" or just sitting back and not making waves.

I wish life came with a manual . . .

I'm having that problem today. Yesterday was "Chick-fil-a Appreciation Day." Why? Because the owner, Dan Cathy came under fire after saying his company takes a strong stand against gay marriage, stating on a radio show (and later elsewhere):
“we’re inviting God’s judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at him and say we know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage. And I pray God’s mercy on our generation that has such a prideful, arrogant attitude that thinks we have the audacity to redefine what marriage is all about.”
I want to make waves. Hell, I want to create a tsunami over this. We had hundreds of people (fundamental Christians, right-wingers and homophobes) who supported the business by purchasing their products from sun up to sun down because they think homosexuality is wrong. Sinful and disgraceful. I want to ask them to show me in the New Testament where it says anything about homosexuality being a sin. I want to ask Americans how in the world allowing gays to marry could hurt anyone. But I live in the Deep South, home to a huge population of close-minded folks. Yet am I being judgmental by judging them? Is my attitude condescending because I don't think these people even understand the book they worship and claim comes from their God? Sigh.... If you find that manual Milfoil, let me know.