The complexity of the subjective Tarot

a more general flow away from traditional reading techniques towards the entirely intuitive due to the incredible number of theme decks which there are now compared to 10 years ago. There is so much less to discuss or remember, no history to discover and little else to talk about other than the images on individual cards.

Click to expand...

This was mentioned in a different thread and a totally different context.
Anyway... it may be true enough, and for he sake of discussion, we can suppose it is.
The key concept being entirely intuitive... we look at the card and the meaning of the card is what we see/think/perceive out of it. The key concept now being we.
When Tarot enters the realm of the subjective, or even entirely subjective, it seems like there is no more to say. It's personal. "You can tell me what you see in the card, what feelings it evokes. Well, I'm informed, but in the end I don't care, because what it does matter is what I see".

For most of us, it's easy.
Think about what would you say to a complete beginner, if You have a chance to give her a single advice?
I would say most of us would go for "follow your intuition".

For some is scary.
When everything depends on me, can't it be all random?
And many reactions are attemps to rule in or to limit the subjectivity of Tarot.

What I want to say is that the intuition is a starting place.
Let's choose (for the sake of the discussion, again) to see Tarot as entirely intuitive, and see where do we go from here.
I will use a metaphore... us being in the same car and looking in different directions. We all see different things, sometimes similar, sometimes opposed. But we are still in the same road. In such a car, we would never say that only because we do not look in the same direction we are not on the same journey.

When creating decks, one of my concern, is usually the attempt to talk to the experience of a person. If You see The Emperor (for simplicity sake) you may see your father, and I can see mine. Or I can see Darth Vader, and you see Cernunnus. And this changes every time, by question, by querent, by deck, by mood, by chance.
By means of our intuition we receive a lot from a card. But, at the same time, we project to a card.
If after the Emperor I draw the Empress, I will see the link.
Looking at the Emperor only, I may choose to see Darth Vader or my own father (who, by the way, happened to be the second cousin of Darth Vader, but it's only a coincidence). If my intuition brougth me Darth Vader, the Empress will not be my mother. Ant it wont' be Amidala (because, sorry, I don't give a damn about the new movies), but it may carry within herself Princess Mononoke.

Oh my... what is happening. I just drew two cards, and I'm remodeling my imaginarium... basically arranging a marriage between late Anakin Skywalker and a wolf raised wild girl.
Choosing to say it another way... the wider energy of the Emperor has been channelled by my intuition into a specific aspect called Dart Vader (we are all familiar with aspect. Dart Vader is all Emperor, but the Emperor is much larger than Mr. Vader). And the Empress has been channeled into our Mononoke.
The Emperor and the Empress are consuming their ageless marriage once again, but with new faces... so this single specifing happening is indeed unique.

And another person sees a different father and mother.... but they are bound to see a marriage nevertheless.
Same car, different perceptions and it's still the same journey.

Ages ago, when we had the presumption (imho) of being able to see the Emperor and the Empress whole... we had knowledge about the meaning of all cards: to learn, discuss, remember. The realm of intuitive and the subjective bring us to see the Emperor and Empress only through the small windows called Darth Vader and Mononoke. Each time a different window.
I did a journey to Spain... I didn't see all of Spain. I saw my own experience of Spain, yet it was a great journey. I didn't become Spanish, but I learned many useful things (una cerveza per favor, mas fria!).

Anyway, if we take a step back in the discussion... I still find a part that is unlear.
- I used my intuition to perceive/project on a card
- my intuition created a channel between my experience and the Tarot
- I got my damn meaning
- I recognized the connection between different cards
- rinse and repeat fro alla cards and we are done.

It's the last item that doesn't really suit me.
I have meanings... so... what I do with them?
So far, I've been totally right-sided (intuitive, nonverbal, randol, holistic, fantasy, concrete)... but does it mean that it needs to stay so?
yes, Tarot start subjective and intuitive on this journey, but what then?
I kissed her on himpulse, but then I must say something sweet, or I will lose her.

It's time to start on techniques.
(wich we have forgotten, for many reasons, and none of them good).
The meanings and the positions of a Spread are the raw bricks of our play. We need to work with them, a bit on the left side (linear, logical, verbal, sequential, symbolic, reality-based) to act with them, in order to get to specific results.

Now I may have scared some of you.
First the idea that you can use Tarot to achieve specific results. Yes.
Example: I'm reading cards to myself. "Does she loves me?" I take a card. Oh, The Hanged Man.
"yes, she loves me, she has just trouble showing it" Oh.. could it be my wishes influencing my intuition? "no, she doesn't love me. I need to suffer". Oh... could they be my fears?
Then I act... to achieve a specific result: a balanced interpretation that I can trust, and that can help me deal with my issue.
I draw one card and I read it thrice. The first in the worst possible way. The second in the best possible way. The third time it will be actually possible for me find a balanced interpretation that takes into account (and not deny or discards) wishes and fears.
This works. It's a technique. (I learned it by Mark McElry, btw).

The second thing that can scare you is that finding a meaning is not the end of a reading. Just like going to school is not just about learning some notions.

Let's take an entirely intuitive reading and let's apply the most commonly known and used tehnique: the elemental dignities.
(joking: I'm referring to reversals actually).
Reversals were ntroduced to Tarot very early (I guess with Etteilla), but basically served the simple purpose of amplificating the number of possible meanings. We don't have that need anymore.
And I would dare say that - mostly - our intuition does not really care if a card is reversed or upright. I mean, we are supposed to let our intuitive part run wild, following a card image to its deeper rechesses. No, IF you are really going intuitive, your intuition is not using reversals.

Technique.
All reversed cards imply potential energies, or repressed energies.
All reversed cards imply changing energies (draw another card and see the direction that energies is transforming)
All reversed cards imply passive energies. (if the Emperor is upright is because Dart Vader killed my father, but if it's reversed, it's because he is my father).

Welcome to dynamic readings.
Techniques are millions.
And they serve each a specific purpose...

If we stop to the card, then the entirely intuitive is a shallow solitary road.
It only lead us to randomess.
But entirely intuitive is an evolution. A challenging one.
When we apply a technique (like the Elemental Dignities, that was conceived before the "intuitive") we are bringin ourselves into the fray. It's not THE Emperor (symbolic and left brained) we are working with. It's our Emperor.

Entirely intuitive made the first step into Tarot SO much easier.
But it made the second step so much harder.
So much that we are forgetting it exist and can find it only walking backwards, to the Golden Dawn.
And on the purple carpet... there should be hundreads of threads (I'm a bit teasing and a bit not) about techniques.

Now I wonder if what I wrote has a start or an end. Who cares... it's still a journey. Safe travels.

ric

RiccardoLS said:

...
Entirely intuitive made the first step into Tarot SO much easier.
But it made the second step so much harder.
...
ric

Click to expand...

I think you are saying that the intuitive approach to reading Tarot is a good, fast start, but because it can be prone to the errors of our own personal bias it can be more difficult to advance past the intermediate level...?


I agree that it is all about letting go of the self and being open to the higher emotional areas of the unconscious, or the creative mind. This so much easier said that done!

But that is what practice is for...as we follow the purple carpet (also a subtle AT forum reference) that paves the royal road.

Thanks Ric!

This is very interesting. Especially since I come to tarot from an entirely different place.

I read the tarot for many, many years before I came here and discovered 'intuitive' reading.

I learned my meanings like a good girl and applied them to the cards as the appeared in a spread, taking into account position etc.

RiccardoLS said:

Think about what would you say to a complete beginner, if You have a chance to give her a single advice?
I would say most of us would go for "follow your intuition".

Click to expand...

Personally I would say 'Learn your meanings like a good girl, and when you know them well you can allow your intuition to flourish within the wide remit of that meaning.'

And I suppose I would say that because that is how it was for me, because I feel that tarot has a structure for a reason, that the suits are different from each other, and the threes are similar to each other 'because'...

Because that is the way they were made, that is the way they were intended.
Or at least that is my understanding of them.

I was gobsmacked when I first came here.
Like 'What do you mean, you never learned the meanings?'

But I came to understand a few things, that this way worked for some people, that it wasn't some weird, illegal use of tarot, that to a large extent I was doing it anyway.

Unless I was to quote the book meaning every time I gave a reading I was indeed using my intuition to see how the card, how the meaning I knew, fitted the position and the question.

I will use a metaphore... us being in the same car and looking in different directions. We all see different things, sometimes similar, sometimes opposed. But we are still in the same road. In such a car, we would never say that only because we do not look in the same direction we are not on the same journey.

Click to expand...

And this is a very good metaphor. If I do a reading in my way, and Gregory (totally intuitive reader) reads for the same question in her way, we are indeed on the same journey. We may even arrive at the same destination!
If we are both doing our jobs properly we ought too!

So, I don't know. What am I saying? That there are many ways to read tarot cards? That they should all work?

Yeah, I suppose so.

But I think it's down to the cards.

When creating decks, one of my concern, is usually the attempt to talk to the experience of a person. If You see The Emperor (for simplicity sake) you may see your father, and I can see mine. Or I can see Darth Vader, and you see Cernunnus. And this changes every time, by question, by querent, by deck, by mood, by chance.
By means of our intuition we receive a lot from a card. But, at the same time, we project to a card.
If after the Emperor I draw the Empress, I will see the link.
Looking at the Emperor only, I may choose to see Darth Vader or my own father (who, by the way, happened to be the second cousin of Darth Vader, but it's only a coincidence). If my intuition brougth me Darth Vader, the Empress will not be my mother. Ant it wont' be Amidala (because, sorry, I don't give a damn about the new movies), but it may carry within herself Princess Mononoke.

Oh my... what is happening. I just drew two cards, and I'm remodeling my imaginarium... basically arranging a marriage between late Anakin Skywalker and a wolf raised wild girl.
Choosing to say it another way... the wider energy of the Emperor has been channelled by my intuition into a specific aspect called Dart Vader (we are all familiar with aspect. Dart Vader is all Emperor, but the Emperor is much larger than Mr. Vader). And the Empress has been channeled into our Mononoke.
The Emperor and the Empress are consuming their ageless marriage once again, but with new faces... so this single specifing happening is indeed unique.

And another person sees a different father and mother.... but they are bound to see a marriage nevertheless.
Same car, different perceptions and it's still the same journey.

Click to expand...

Yes, we should all see this, more or less, when looking at the Empress and the Emperor. The cards should illustrate these ideas. The pictures should make the thoughts arise in us that are in harmony with the book meanings. The meanings given in books ought to harmonise with the feeling and the idea of the card.

It should be a coherent system in which both harmonise with each other, and it does not matter whether the book meaning is used or the card read intuitively, both should end up in more or less the same place.

I know, there are different traditions, where the meanings of the cards do radically diverge.
I suppose in keeping with my own particular bias (and knowledge base) I am talking about the RWS/Thoth based traditions.

I draw one card and I read it thrice. The first in the worst possible way. The second in the best possible way. The third time it will be actually possible for me find a balanced interpretation that takes into account (and not deny or discards) wishes and fears.
This works. It's a technique. (I learned it by Mark McElry, btw).

Click to expand...

Thanks Ric! Thanks Mark! This will be very useful to me.

Entirely intuitive made the first step into Tarot SO much easier.
But it made the second step so much harder.
So much that we are forgetting it exist and can find it only walking backwards, to the Golden Dawn.
And on the purple carpet... there should be hundreads of threads (I'm a bit teasing and a bit not) about techniques.

Click to expand...

I think what I am trying to say here is that unlike this thread I am walking forward from the Golden Dawn.

I thought I knew how to read when I first came here. I thought I knew the only way to read. I was wrong. I learn and I continue to learn.
My reading skills grow as I learn to trust my intuition a little more, to use reversals that I have never used before, to find out which of many things are the ones that work for me.

Your post is about increasing ones reading skills through a combination of intuition and learned tecnique, and even though I am coming from the opposite direction I believe that we are still on the same journey.

Now I wonder if what I wrote has a start or an end. Who cares... it's still a journey. Safe travels.

ric

Click to expand...

Safe travels to you too.

What a great post! And so much to think about, but all I would say for the moment is;

I am so, so ambivalent about what is called "entirely intuitive" reading.

Speaking for myself, I would never say to a beginner "use your intuition". I don't think it would help them in the slightest. It wouldn't have helped me.

The analogy of an accomplished artist comes to mind; learn, study and see the perspectives which tarot history can offer, those minds which have come before us and which have helped develop tarot into what it is today. Then you can start doing your own abstraction, think about what you do - and don't - want to reject. Like a good artist knows all about classicism and perspective and technique but then uses his/her own language to move away from that. And I think you can spot artists who "do" uninformed abstract with no technique at all a mile off.

Does being entirely intuitive mean that we feel ourselves absolved from study? Is being intuitive a knee-jerk reaction to an image or does it involve careful, prolonged analysis? I genuinely wonder...

Le Fanu said:

. And I think you can spot artists who "do" uninformed abstract with no technique at all a mile off.

Does being entirely intuitive mean that we feel ourselves absolved from study? Is being intuitive a knee-jerk reaction to an image or does it involve careful, prolonged analysis? I genuinely wonder...

Click to expand...

Oh exactly, that's a very good analogy. I can indeed spot it a mile off; sometimes it's easy to articulate why, other times not so much, but you can see the lack of fundamental technique.

To my mind it's part of a 'toolbox' of technique - it gives you choices. You can use the traditional method if you wish, or you can take it and mould it to your needs. But without that knowledge, there's a lot of doors that remain closed.

Many strongly intutive readers or those who are certain of psychic abilities will no doubt differ strongly from my view on this, of course, and it's that case of 'what works for you'.

But for your 'average' reader, or someone like me who is as psychic as a sack of potatoes, knowledge of symbolism, tradition and the various stories that are woven into Tarot can only enrich their reading experience.

I think that different starting points are easier for different people. Some people *can* begin by reading intuitively from the pictures - not me, not at all. I had to learn meanings and structure and try out techniques to get anywhere at all and I'll never be able to match a really accomplished reader. That might bother me if I was wanting to be a professional reader, but I do it because I love Tarot and desperately wanted to be able to read *at all*. I'll keep on reading and learning but only as much as I enjoy doing that.

I wonder whether it might also be a bit like a piano teacher once told me. She said that people who made lots of progress very fast often came to a plateau, and it was a shock to them because they'd had it all so easy. And then many decided it wasn't worth the effort, and the thing that wasn't worth the effort was all the basic techniques and drill that everyone else had to put in to get to the same place. So at that point they either did put in the work, or else got overtaken by people who were used to having to work at it and who were willing to put the time in.

So maybe if you begin in a certain way (for some, memorising; for others purely intuitive reading), and that's quite easy for you, you might get sort of stuck and just not bother with the hard work that might be needed to incorporate other techniques and methods. And that might be enough, depending on why you read and what you, personally, want to get out of it.

I don't think there's one way. However I do think that the more ways you can read the better reader you can become, if you want to.

ETA: It's like spread positions - I NEED spread positions (and a focused question) or I can make any set of cards say anything I want them too. I find it interesting when people say they can't / don't use them, because I get rubbish if I don't use them. Unless of course I want to make cards say whatever I want them to, just keep drawing cards until I get the right answer to a question I hadn't thought of asking until the card came.

Is not using a spread or a question part of intuitive reading as well???

Riccardo,

First I must say that your post left me feeling but in a very good way though! I read it minutes after you posted it, but am only just now returning to it. I could spend many hours (that I don't have) addressing various points you've raised.

Entirely intuitive tarot interpretations - good or bad? limiting or freeing? dynamic or static? Yes. None of the above, some of the above and all of the above.

In an ideal world decks would illustrate the meanings and/or archetypes associated with each card. Then it wouldn't matter if one read the cards intuitively or if one used the meanings intended by the author and/or artist of the deck.

And there are many decks out there where the artist included symbolism that provides interpretations other than what the author intended. If one reads only according to the author's meanings, then one misses out on other possible interpretations.

Since tarot is world-wide, what is commonplace in one culture can be scarce or unknown in another and what is considered luxurious in one culture might be seen as wasteful in another. So when presented with imagery and/or meanings that are foreign to one, one can choose to use them as intended or to filter them through the lens of that with which one is familiar. Similarly, if you had Lizzie Borden and Charles Manson for parents instead of June and Ward Cleaver (a Leave it to Beaver reference), you might be likely to filter the Empress and Emperor images through your own experiences instead of using them as intended as archetypes.

For me, I think I have a pretty good grounding in "standard" meanings since the whole intuitive concept wasn't on my radar when I first started out almost 20 years ago. So while I do try to read the images these days, I still have that foundation of the card's "standard" meaning to add to whatever I may say based on what I see.

The flip side to that is just because an author, school of tarot or tradition says that card X means Y doesn't mean that I or anyone else has to accept that as gospel if it doesn't make sense to us. If an author says a card means potato and I see race car whenever I see that card, we're both right. Because I believe that while tarot itself is a universal language, I also believe that it speaks to each reader in a manner that the reader can understand. So, when tarot wants the author to understand "potato" it will show them that card. But when tarot wants me to understand "potato" it will know to show me a different card because I don't get "potato" from that card.

The relationship between tarot and reader is a two-way street. It's not about tarot having prescribed meanings that the reader must learn and use (a one-way street), but about the tarot and the reader finding a way to work together in order for the reader to utilize the tarot (a two-way street). So, tarot can work for one who reads completely intuitively as well as it works for one who reads based on what the cards mean (by whoever's definition) as well as it works for one who uses a hybrid of those two methods to read.

Rodney

From Le Fanu: "Speaking for myself, I would never say to a beginner "use your intuition". I don't think it would help them in the slightest. It wouldn't have helped me."

I am so with you on this. I think those of us who have been reading a while, some complacency (and that can border on arrogance in some ways - if I can find the words to explain what I mean I will come back and edit this) sets in and we forget what it was like to learn. We have experience behind us, a fair dose of confidence etc, and numerous readings to reflect on and analyse. So when a newbie comes along, and genuinely asks for some pointers we post glib comments of "go with your intuition".

Sorry, but that is not really always helpful or fair. When you are learning your concentration is more piqued than intuition. Remember learning to drive a car? We had to really think about changing gear, checking mirror, indicating, slowing - all at the same time and it was darned hard. Now, we just do it. That is when intuition can come into play - not in the early days of learning. If that were the case we would all be F1 drivers in the making at the age of 16.

I know if I was a newbie starting out now, and was just given that sentence as advise I would probably give up. My intuition when I started out was just not there. I had to have some foundation, building blocks to start from. In that respect, having the basic key meanings does help. It is the starter for 10 so to speak.

It is interesting to consider it may be that bit harder these days due to the wealth of decks available. Trying to get your head around that can be daunting. I guess if you only had a handful to choose from even as recent as 20 years ago, it may be less intimidating. All those different images, yet which one is right? Which one fits in with those key phrases you started out with? And if it doesn't fit, can you read with it? This shows there does come a time where a good reader may be able to make a subtle shift from breaking out of the constraints which may come into being if reliance is solely on commonly attributed phrases.

And I think there are other valid issues here. Time has to come into the equation. We are talking of a huge system here. 78 cards, reversals, linking cards, layout positions etc. It takes time to learn this. And that is something modern society doesn't perhaps give as much credance to as it used to. We have everything available in an instant these days so it is not perhaps in our nature to take things slowly, work at issues over a period of time etc. Those who are prepared to be patient will reap the benefits. Those who try and run before they walk will either risk becoming confused or having their confidence implode when they realise it is not possible to learn this in just a matter of days. How frustrating that must be when they see others pull answers out of the air when replying to posts. They may be wondering if they will ever be able to do that themselves.

Not sure I answered Ric's opening post there, but the intuition thing is interesting. There may have been more of a structured system adhered to in days gone by, with intuition not really being at the forefront of readings. I am as I type this, thinking of the stereotypical "Gyspy Rose Lee" approach of readings. The ones where you may be told of the "tall, dark handsome stranger, or unexpected changes coming into play". No linking of cards, no context just them giving the impression of being mysterious and... well vague at times. With my knowledge of reading for a few years I now know they were applying just key phrases associated with the cards - nothing more. If asked for more info, or to elaborate further it could often lead to a comment of "I can only say what I see in the cards" which could be interpreted as showing they had not used intuition at all.

And yes, with the onset of such a variety of decks, styles etc, it has led to intuition being deemed a more appropriate approach. But that comes with TIME and EXPERIENCE in my opinion. It comes when the brain is not in that highly piqued concentration mode, but is relaxed enough to be able to go with the flow.

Davina

Aerin said:

I don't think there's one way. However I do think that the more ways you can read the better reader you can become, if you want to.

Click to expand...

I can only second your excellent post, Aerin. I completely agree, and I am quite familiar with that pattern. I need a system, a foundation to start with. I think that is part of being a (dominant) "Thinking" person. But just because I need to start with something concrete, doesn't mean I (always) become bound and constrained by it, but that is my propensity.

Aerin said:

Is not using a spread or a question part of intuitive reading as well???

Click to expand...

I would say absolutely, yes. I think "intuition" is often confused with "psychic", and all the typical stereotypes that label infers. I think "psychic" is contained within "intuition", not synonymous with it.

Actually I suprised myself given that advice "use your intuition, Luke!".
It sounded differently... like maybe "what do YOU see in the card?"

I do not want to amplificate the difference between right and left, intuition and knowledge... rather to bridge among it. Still intuition is the opening key to a Realm that is still not very accepted into Tarot: subjectivity.

It's not just that we can say: person A and person B have two different readings and they are both rigth.
I think it may be something more, even if in a subtle way.
It's a reading needs to be subjective as it "involves" you. It can't be otherwise.
I'm not sure about what I'm saying... but it's like we are inviting Tarot into our world, rather than letting ourself entering the Tarot world.

By the way, I'm fascinated by the idea of the "other way round". From knowledge to intuition (as Lillie, Aerin and many others said).
The square vs the circle. And the circle vs the square.