Finally . . .

Finally, it looks like we have answered all of the Astrological Questions that can be thought of.
Congratulations to all of us !!! I'm sure that everyone is now at home calculating up charts at a rate of 10 a day, at least, and guiding their friends and families to a better future.

Actually, the bulk of the dialog here on the list has concerned natal charts. The next typical step after assimilating an endless array of "natal" factors is to exercise our curiousity about how the natal chart plays a role in our ongoing lives. How is it's potential likely to develop? What do we look for, in the big picture, for likely major periods in our lives when things will seem to change?

I'm not reccommending that we plunge into progressions, directions, returns, etc. I think we can just stay with the movement of the planets after our birth, during our lives, rignt now to see what there is to learn and to use. For this discussion, if anyone is interested, it might be nice to review the role of the transiting personal "planets" as they move through our charts.

Anyone interested? Dave

dadsnook2000 said:

Finally, it looks like we have answered all of the Astrological Questions that can be thought of.
Congratulations to all of us !!! I'm sure that everyone is now at home calculating up charts at a rate of 10 a day, at least, and guiding their friends and families to a better future.

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LOL!
Not really.
In fact, I always happen to still have a bunch of questions to ask... my fear is always overwhelming everyone with my own doubts and sounding repetitive. I don't people seeing my name as a thread starter, rolling their eyes and think "ack, not again!".

And I am determined to learn how to calculate charts manually, even if I end up using the computer in the future. So I am definitely not calculating chart at a rate of 10 a day.

dadsnook2000 said:

Actually, the bulk of the dialog here on the list has concerned natal charts. The next typical step after assimilating an endless array of "natal" factors is to exercise our curiousity about how the natal chart plays a role in our ongoing lives. How is it's potential likely to develop? What do we look for, in the big picture, for likely major periods in our lives when things will seem to change?

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I agree, it seems many of my questions (including mine) are centered on the parts of the chart as an static thing. I think it'd be very nice to study the planets, houses and chart as 'living' things - the planets don't stop moving after you were born - but I just feel unsure about my level of knowledge.

If anyone decided to start here a study of cycles and more 'active' chart analysis (that does not focus on the still planets of the natal chart), I'd love to participate.

That said, I must confess I really liked to analyze Hitler's chart with the help of other forum members. It'd be nice if we could do a similar thing in the future. Practicing is a great way to learn.

dadsnook2000 said:

I'm not reccommending that we plunge into progressions, directions, returns, etc. I think we can just stay with the movement of the planets after our birth, during our lives, rignt now to see what there is to learn and to use. For this discussion, if anyone is interested, it might be nice to review the role of the transiting personal "planets" as they move through our charts.

Anyone interested? Dave

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I am interested!

In fact, I was reading a book by John Townley called Astrological Cycles and the Life Crisis Periods. It deals with the Planets cycles and how the affects one's life... it's very interesting!

John Townley and cycles

I have Townley's book, it is one of the fifty or so I kept after throwing away the last batch of some 350 books a decade ago. If you don't refer to them, don't read them, don't agree with them, then out they go. In one portion of his book he goes into Jupiter and Saturn relative to each other and their movement through the natal chart. I've always seen this pair as representing the "business of life" --- the manner in which we seek to expand and take hold of opportunities while recognizing the limits of time and resources. Dave

dadsnook2000 said:

I have Townley's book, it is one of the fifty or so I kept after throwing away the last batch of some 350 books a decade ago. If you don't refer to them, don't read them, don't agree with them, then out they go. In one portion of his book he goes into Jupiter and Saturn relative to each other and their movement through the natal chart. I've always seen this pair as representing the "business of life" --- the manner in which we seek to expand and take hold of opportunities while recognizing the limits of time and resources. Dave

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Well, what I like in his book that he talks not simply about the cycles as in Returns, but also about the influence of the planets when they are rising, and the different influences of the Moon phases in relation to the Sun. That is, the many different ways a planet can influence your chart as it moves on the sky.

I am beginning to understand the Planets cycles, and it's a fascinating topic. I still have some problems understanding the logic behind progressions though. I probably should stick to natal charts for longer, but the more 'active' Astrology makes me really curious!

I agree that looking at some methods of prediction, is a good idea. The problem, as always is that there are a multitude to choose from and many Astrologers see prediction as the application of two or more methods in concert. I recently read Abu Mashar's On The Revolutions Of The Years Of Nativities which is. as far as I'm aware the first book on Solar Returns that clearly uses charts cast for the returns. Abu Mashar uses those SRs in conjunction with Transits but also Profections and Distributions (a Time Lord System) which is clearly NOT an approach recommended for beginners or intermediate students. However to concentrate on one of these, and ignore the others would be a misrepresentation of Abu Mashar and (if he were right) a misleading evaluaation.

The same holds for modern practices of Secondary (and other) Progressions and Transits. So do we start from 'bottom up', transits being the easiest to observe and comment on but may not work in some instances because of 'superior' cycles or do we start from 'top down' and look at those 'directions' which use symbolic time? These are more difficult for a student to understand, but may be a better framework for considering Transits.

If we take the 'top down' approach we have some real issues, which is the 'top' level. Secondary Progressions is a technique invented by Placidus de Titi, but he did that as a means to approximate Primary Directions, the maths of which is quite complex. In turn the use of Solar Arcs is a technique which is effectively designed to simplify Secondary Progressions. Time Lord systems are only used in some branches of Traditional Astrology (Hellenistic and Arabic), so I would definitely rule those out for the time being. The other three are related and there is a modern usage of Primary Directions. However on balance the complexity is not for a beginner.

So we come down to Transits. Yes let's look at them but let's also ensure that students realise that they don't always work and this is because there are cycles within cycles. The other one mentioned so far is the Saturn/Jupiter cycle - developed primarily for use in Mundane Astrology (which sadly rarely gets discussed here). It's not one of the first 'weapons' of choice for natal Astrologers, whether traditional or modern, but it perhaps does offer something worth discussing.

Minderwiz said:

So we come down to Transits. Yes let's look at them but let's also ensure that students realise that they don't always work and this is because there are cycles within cycles. The other one mentioned so far is the Saturn/Jupiter cycle - developed primarily for use in Mundane Astrology (which sadly rarely gets discussed here). It's not one of the first 'weapons' of choice for natal Astrologers, whether traditional or modern, but it perhaps does offer something worth discussing.

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I wasn't aware there were so many prediction methods in Astrology!

I confess I'd love to try a Mundane Astrology study or exercise. I do not find a lot of detailed information about it in my books... I mean, the books present a definition, but not really how you do it. Honestly I wouldn't know where to start, but I still think it's a nice topic to discuss!

Transits are another subject I am eager to learn... I am waiting until I feel more confident about the basic part of Astrology, but if anyone starts a discussion or exercise about Transits here I'll participate to the best of my ability.

I realize that the prediction part is a more complex one; however, I think we ought to discuss these things in the forum because there a lot more to be explored in Astrology. I also believe in learning through practice, some perhaps some exercises would be an interesting opportunity for all members to go beyond the Natal Astrology a bit (even though it's a fascinating topic in itself).

I noticed that in the past there used to be threads with group exercises, and they seemed very nice...

Perhaps Dave could give us some suggestion on how to explore these topics here?

dadsnook2000 said:

I'm not reccommending that we plunge into progressions, directions, returns, etc. I think we can just stay with the movement of the planets after our birth, during our lives, rignt now to see what there is to learn and to use. For this discussion, if anyone is interested, it might be nice to review the role of the transiting personal "planets" as they move through our charts.

Anyone interested? Dave

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Okay, I do not wish to see this thread die, because I like the idea of it.

I think... we could study the movement of the planets using a chart as an example. Doesn't have to be any of our personal charts, perhaps we could choose a famous person or make a random chart, so we can have some material to analyze?

However, I do not know which method would be the best one to use. Progressions seem to be the "easiest" because they come from the Natal Chart, but I confess I do not fully understand the idea behind one day = one year, so I may be completely wrong here. I think Primary Directions would be a bit too complex for beginners like me... I don't know anything about it. And I also know too little about Symbolic Directions to see if they would be useful as a study method.

The other option is Transits, but Minderwiz pointed to the problem of the cycles within cycles... Nevertheless, I think we would need a Natal Chart as an example. Perhaps we could take the chart of someone who had a very chaotic life, like Charles Bukowski, and see if the Transits or Progressions showed specific things of his life? (Ok, I just happen to like his work, and he was a bit misfit so maybe it could make an interesting analysis. But honestly, any chart is game for me.)


So... just giving some ideas! I really hope other people decide to chime in, this could be a very nice exercise in my opinion!

Your choice

Your choice of Charles Bukowski is not a good one. Like many authors, singers and actors, his biography cites years but very few event dates --- one on Wikipedia for an arrest for draft evasion. A public figure with an extensive list of dated activities is needed.

Transits can be fundamental alignments to study. They are used with most other forms of charts (progressions, directions, returns) and form a necessary fundamental body of knowledge that serves astrologers well. Dave.

dadsnook2000 said:

Your choice of Charles Bukowski is not a good one. Like many authors, singers and actors, his biography cites years but very few event dates --- one on Wikipedia for an arrest for draft evasion. A public figure with an extensive list of dated activities is needed.

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Oh, you are right. I had forgotten that many parts of Buk's biography are a bit hazy. Well, I don't many celebrities with a detailed biography (in terms of dates) available, so perhaps someone else can give us an idea.

Hitler, whose Natal Chart we analyzed a few weeks ago, has a rather well-known life, including major events that happened before he became Führer, but I am not sure how much of this has exact dates and all.

dadsnook2000 said:

Transits can be fundamental alignments to study. They are used with most other forms of charts (progressions, directions, returns) and form a necessary fundamental body of knowledge that serves astrologers well. Dave.

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I think Transits are a good idea, since they are so important in Astrology! My doubt is... how would we do this exercise here in the forum? I know there have been other exercises of the kind in the past but I have no idea how they worked...

Transit Review format

If we were to do a "Transit Review" there are a few format rules that would be helpful to observe.

FIRST, one person would initiate each transit combination (a transiting planet to a natal planet). That would be done after list participation suggested that most/all had a chance to comment.

SECOND, each transiting planet thread would cover A) the planet transiting the inner planets (Sun through Mars) and B) the planet transiting the social planets (Jupiter, Saturn) and outer planets (Uranus, Neptune, Pluto). This approach would keep the threads short enough so that they might be used easily for reference. We can decide which planets to include in each thread section. We could also include the four major asteroids if that was of interest.

THIRD, the courtesy of having two, three or four knowledgable astrologers post first would be useful as it would avoid some enthusiastic beginners from restating the obvious or going off on a confusing tangent. This is not meant to be exclusionary but to limit confusion should large numbers wish to post on these topical areas.

FOURTH, examples from any list members that illustrate the core transit meanings would be highly welcomed and encouraged. Personal situations make the best learning tools.

Just some thoughts. Dave