Meanings: original vs modern vs intuition

I recently posted the thread about reconnecting with tarot. ( Those of you that responded were great! Thank you! ) My next big decision comes down to how I want to interpret the cards. And after some mental debate, I came to the conclusion there there seems to be three directions I could take, and all three of them seem like good ways to follow.

The original meanings. That is, the meaning that the deck creator's intended for each card. In my view, while the cards belong to us, they are permanently infused with the creators energy and intention. Rather than modify the meanings, we could use them as they were intended. Similar to using a butter knife as a screwdriver.

Modern meanings. Many decks are quite old, and were created in a different time and culture. Because of this, well known meanings have formed and changed over the decades. They have evolved in such a way as to keep up with our ever-changing world. A good example of this is the fool. In many of the very early decks, the fool was for the most part an idiot. Over time, this has changed into someone who is free spirited and carefree.

Intuitive meanings. Many times, the images on the cards stirs an emotional or memory based response within us. Without having ever even looked at the LWB, the scenes are part of a story. We can immerse ourselves within the scene, and draw from that information. And example here is from the Deviant Moon deck. It's one that I enjoy a lot, but have never put a lot of time into studying it. I'm looking at the ten of pentacles. To me, it seems as if the old man could easily defeat the younger child and is likely aware that there is a person below the table interfering with the game. I would say the old man is enjoying the time with the younger, and the younger is enjoying learning from the old man.

I know that this is a decision I must ultimately make for myself, but I'm curious about the opinions of others. What path did you folks choose, and what was some of the motivating factors for reading that way?

This is a very interesting question, and I have a few things to say about it, but my answers may well seem like the Hanged Man, upside down and topsy turvy, so bear with me for a while. I hope to have a point in the end.

Firstly, I find that when people say "meanings" they don't actually mean what they say. Meanings, for many, are what they learned by rote in books written by a myriad of authors from Pollack to Arrien. These, strictly speaking, are not meanings, but interpretations written down and codified.

The "real" meanings of the cards lie in the cards themselves, and are not arbitrary, and each card connects not only with those before and after it, but with each and every single one in the deck, somewhat like a Rhizome. The meaning of each card is (for the sake of discussion, let's take the Thoth, since I know it the best) are built up of many different elements such as astrological attributions, places on the Tree of Life and so on. They are not arbitrary, and the Two of Swords is what it is because it must be, because the system the deck creator used "decided" that that that Two must be that Two and not another. I accept his system, but the experience of the symbols and structure used is my own. Even when I study Crowley's Two of Swords, it is still my Two, and not his.

Hence, when I (not to aggrandize myself) talk of meanings, I mean that I took all the different elements present in the card and external elements affecting the card, and then built up the meaning for it, using those elements, and that is what any creator of any deck should strive for. Another person, using those same elements I did may come to the same conclusions, but the experience will be different. If they don't, a tarot deck could very well be just an LWB. Modern meanings or not, a card must speak for itself, together with the chorus of the rest of the deck.

Now we get to the point you mentioned about modern meanings. It is true that even with relatively (very relatively) new decks like the Thoth, the significance of the symbols has had time to evolve and develop, and so may be interpreted differently as time goes on, but I think the core intention of the creator is still there (an exception to this is the Swastika, which, although I try to interpret as an ancient Indian symbol, it cannot not evoke different images entirely). A symbol is not a letter, it is a form of code that conveys not meaning, but an experience. In esoterically-heavy decks like the Thoth, what you call intuition is in fact the amalgamation of the elements into a cohesive (or not) story. In my mind, intuition is not making things up on the fly, that's simply a Rorschach test (there was a long thread about intuition, so I won't go into it here). I find that what people call intuition simply ignores most of what the essence of the card is. This may sound un-intuitive, but the drawing on the card is only a small part of what the cards says. Blind "intuition" ignores much of what a card could be.

The point I am trying to make is that the evocations on the cards are not "meant" to be set in stone, even if they are written down in books as in the Book of Thoth, but to stimulate thought and development. So, when you talk of "meanings" it is a concept that, strictly speaking, doesn't exist. Each card attains a meaning only at the moment of reading it, in a way. I base my meanings on centuries-old wisdom like astrology and Kabbalah, but the they are modern because I am modern, and every generation "rediscovers" the same knowledge and adapts it. My meanings aren't modern because some pop-culture metaphysical author interpreted the Fool as a Kerouac-type figure, but because my vision of the Tree of life points me in the direction of him. This is heresy to say, but in a perfect world, there would be no Tarot instruction books.

Crowley said this about the Book of Law, but it could relate to the Thoth tarot itself. He said that none of his interpretations to the Book should be taken as gospel, and that, indeed, no one should teach another the Law. Like the Book of Law, any Tarot deck should be experienced individually, even when studying with others. Break a card apart to its molecular makeup, and then rebuild it using the bricks it provides. These bricks may be present in the card, but like a house, an architect brings "invisible" knowledge into building it. A house is not only bricks and stone, but years of study into foundations, materials and angles, not to mention man's challenge to the elements, workers' pay, the history of civilization itself. You don't have to study all that history to have a roof over your head, but it helps merely to be aware of it. That, in essence, is what a single Tarot card holds. Minimizing that to a mere "meaning" is doing oneself a disservice. We are all better than that.

Now, when you speak of modern meanings, it is interesting to note that they have changed a lot less than what we would think, and the Fool is a great example of it. In the Grimm fairly tales, the Fool of the family is usually the one who gets the rewards, and in real life, it was the foolish sons who were sent off to be apprenticed by monks, since stupidity was sometimes seen as holiness and purity. The Fool is perhaps the card that has actually changed the least over the years, and from a certain point of view, is still a powerful universal symbol.

So as I said, my answer came from the opposite end of the horse's mouth, but my point is that you should not (in my opinion) take "meanings" at face value, but investigate why they exist and what makes them up. Only then will the meanings take on new dimensions for you. You don't have to study the entire Western Mystery Tradition in order to do this, but only to make Tarot your own, by allowing it to take you into areas you wouldn't consider.

"Meanings" are what make Tarot "safe." The second you take a hammer and destroy the card, it ceases to be safe, and the real adventure begins.

I ~think~ I understand what you are driving at. I pulled my WRS out to take a look, memories flood my mind. Memories of reading the LWB in the early 90's as a teenager. Memories of reading Pollacks books. I go back to the early 2k, and see myself by my bed reading and looking at Druidcraft tarot. Somehow, the words that I've read seem like they will always stick in my head. I have a Deviant Moon here with me, one that I admire the artwork on, but haven't spent a whole lot of time with. Again, the similarities pop up with many of the cards, and I'm taken back to reading from a book. It's very difficult for me to see past what I have studied and learned for over 15 years.

I admire that you have been able to look past printed words and defined symbology! I hope to someday advance to that level. It seems to me that the only way for me to be free from defined ideas, is to start anew with a deck I have never tried to learn about from books. To find a deck that is so very different in it's symbols that I'm unable to relate it to any of the material I have ever seen before. I'm lucky enough to have such a deck. I was lucky enough to receive a pre-release copy of Hexen2.0 and it's accompanying book. There are no printed meanings anywhere for that deck, and it's not based on Pixie's artwork in any way.

To become familiar with this deck, I will be forced to read about the things that are on each and every card. This truly would be a blank slate for me.

Great post Closrapexa!

I would like to add that all of those meanings that are still in your mind from your prior studies of Tarot are a base, and as you study more and most importantly play with the cards, you will build an understanding that is your own. Things will come together and you will make surprising connections.

So I encourage you to study as much as you will, but remember those meanings are building blocks and they will help you get to know Tarot. Kind of like addition before multiplication - if that makes sense.

Spending time handling the cards, grouping them in different ways to make comparisons, and considering how others interpret the cards will all be helpful. The card meanings, for me, continue to expand and grow...it seems endless.

Have fun, it's a very interesting journey.

Howdy Brad, nice, thought-provoking question. My answer would be "all the above". For me the established interpretations for a given card are a starting point. For most Rider-Waite based decks these pretty much come from Arthur E. Waite's "Pictorial Key to the Tarot" - much of Waite's interpretations are, I believe, rooted in the teachings of the Golden Dawn.

As I said, these meanings are a starting point. And, as Closepraxa so eloquently said,

"The point I am trying to make is that the evocations on the cards are not "meant" to be set in stone, even if they are written down in books as in the Book of Thoth, but to stimulate thought and development."

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Use what you've learned from books as the foundation. Then add to this foundation the stones and mortar that come from your own life and observations. This is how you build in the "modern" interpretations. Modern interpretations aren't really new, simply the same human experiences based in our modern culture. The Devil card in the mid 1800's might have represented addiction to drink or opium - today it may represent addiction to crack. Still an addiction. A reading in 1900 that indicated that you may lose that big account because of missing your steamship, today might indicate you lose the account because of a computer network failure. As Alphonse Karr said; "the more things change, the more they are the same."

Then too, some decks do add nuances or alter some basic ideas of a card. You mentioned the Deviant Moon Tarot (a new favorite of mine, by the way). And a good example from this is The Hermit; in the RWS he is shown on a mountain top shining forth his light for those who would seek him out - in the Deviant Moon - he is hiding from society and does not wish to be sought out.

So basically the "traditional" and the "modern" interpretations are not all that different. Though an artist may add things or simplify things in their work. For the most part the modern Tarot deck is based either in the Marseilles (or other "ancient" decks), the Thoth or the RWS traditions. So, though I mostly use RWS based decks, I can also read with the Thoth based decks as well.

You also mentioned "intuitive" interpretation. To a great extent your intuition is working every time you do a reading. Once you have learned those interpretations that Waite puts forth in his book, you have something for your intuition to work off of. Your intuition then jumps in and helps you to determine which of the "traditional" meanings apply for the card in a particular reading. Does The Chariot mean a "triumph", or does it mean "building a team"? Does The Lovers mean an impending marriage, or the connection between a person's conscious mind, their body and their spirit?

A specific example of the working of intuition comes to mind from a reading I did several years ago - the 4 of Wands came up for the recent past in a reading which was turning out to have messages from a recently passed parent. The 4 of Wands can represent a celebration, but I also got the picture of actually opening a bottle of champagne and drinking a toast to the recently departed, though it was a celebration about something else. This was my "intuition" (and my Spirit Guides) working - filling in what's on the card, expanding on the very basics of what the picture represents and what the "traditional" meaning of the card is. So, when you pull that 10 of Coins showing that chess game, is it about the child or the old man? In the RWS it shows a family get-together in the background, but in the foreground sits an old man who is largely being ignored - in the reading is it about a reunion, or about the old man being left out? This is where your intuition will play the largest role ... and where the real work of a reading is - the in-depth interpretation of the what the card is saying.

So, back to the original question. I do use "traditional", "modern" and "intuitive" interpretations. I use all three and use them all the time. I suspect that, unless you have to look up a meaning for every card in a reading, every time you do a reading, you also use all three of these types of interpretations. Granted, my intuition doesn't flow as well as it used to, but I'm getting back to where I was before my hiatus. I suspect you'll get to where you want to be too. The intuition that we use in a Tarot reading has to be exercised and strengthened. So, keep doing all of what you do.

Hmm. Maybe you could do a reading on what you need to do to read better. I'm actually planning to do a reading similar to that tomorrow. It's a good exercise and might help you to find that connection your seeking ...

[edit to fix poor grammar ]

Exellent Posts!

Great thread... I would like to find the original intuition thread you mentioned Closrapexa...
I do similar to Trojon but in a less experienced way I am guessing...

When I do a reading for someone I look at the cards and think about them and I look for the end of the thread..... because it will be in one of the cards so you can pick it up and follow it to get the whole thing untangled. That's how I see it.... the card that leads me to the end of the thread is the theme as it were, of the reading... the signpost to the direction it is taking.
Even in a small spread 3 cards say, could have umpteen meanings, especially if there is no particular order designated.

I use the Deviant Moon a lot and that Hermit is quite a character, he does like to hide in his cave, I identify with him a lot, but I don't think you need to go too far from that deck to get practise with intuition.

I don't have the Hexen but I have The Holy Light and Silicon Dawn both of which are their own systems really, and sometimes I think the more signs and symbols on a card the less intuitive we are, which is I guess why a lot of folk love the Pip decks.

Winterchild said:

Great thread... I would like to find the original intuition thread you mentioned Closrapexa...

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Here it is

http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=181857

Meaning original vs modern vs intuition

I know this will seem like doing things the long way round but there is no real answer to your question apart from this.. start at the beginning (i.e. the standard interpretation you will find that comes with the deck from the creators) and then work through yourself - i.e. the way you see yourself in comparison with the modern world from the moment you received the cards to the moment you find yourself in now.. then comes the intuition.. and 25-30 years later .. you are still seeking answers..

buts its a fun journey.. blessings be, paula

I would say you can 'start' with any of the three, but it is the environment and who

you are reading for that will ultimately decide this.

If you are with a group of friends, or with a friend whose inspired by a card...for me, every intention of reading 'as the creators imagined' can fly out the window. The people may be smart and savvy and be interested in what the book has to say, but the card picture may mean something so different to every person.

It doesn't matter to me what the author said if the person who saw a card and is reacting to the picture or card number has an inspirational self-meaning that has a different take and perhaps the minor symbol that jumps out at them is what they gladly embrace. If the Princess of Wands in the Thoth deck reminds someone of a saying 'having the tiger by the tail' and they go into a story or a realization that has some inspiration for a poetic work--then my interpretation read from a book may be not so meaningful... if the person may feel this does not give an added textural weave to their interwoven story.

For me, if I am reading with my Thoth-like Via Tarot, the Princess of Wands has something fiery and I look for associations with a fiery emphasis in surrounding cards. However in the case of the person who drew the Princess of Wands and had a story that worked for them suddely spring to mind--it was enough that the card inspired a great topic for their poetic exercise. As an after thought, I might have added and been able to apply the poetic fire definition to the reading, but in the moments of the person speaking the meaning to them to write about something--well, it wasn't so important what I thought the card meant.

So whatever well-intentioned I may be by looking up meanings, studying and writing and interpretation--at the point of reading and interacting with another, their intuition might be a better way to go.

Best,

Cerulean

brad said:

I recently posted the thread about reconnecting with tarot. ( Those of you that responded were great! Thank you! ) My next big decision comes down to how I want to interpret the cards. And after some mental debate, I came to the conclusion there there seems to be three directions I could take, and all three of them seem like good ways to follow.

The original meanings. That is, the meaning that the deck creator's intended for each card. In my view, while the cards belong to us, they are permanently infused with the creators energy and intention. Rather than modify the meanings, we could use them as they were intended. Similar to using a butter knife as a screwdriver.

Modern meanings. Many decks are quite old, and were created in a different time and culture. Because of this, well known meanings have formed and changed over the decades. They have evolved in such a way as to keep up with our ever-changing world. A good example of this is the fool. In many of the very early decks, the fool was for the most part an idiot. Over time, this has changed into someone who is free spirited and carefree.

Intuitive meanings. Many times, the images on the cards stirs an emotional or memory based response within us. Without having ever even looked at the LWB, the scenes are part of a story. We can immerse ourselves within the scene, and draw from that information. And example here is from the Deviant Moon deck. It's one that I enjoy a lot, but have never put a lot of time into studying it. I'm looking at the ten of pentacles. To me, it seems as if the old man could easily defeat the younger child and is likely aware that there is a person below the table interfering with the game. I would say the old man is enjoying the time with the younger, and the younger is enjoying learning from the old man.

I know that this is a decision I must ultimately make for myself, but I'm curious about the opinions of others. What path did you folks choose, and what was some of the motivating factors for reading that way?

Click to expand...

brad said:

I recently posted the thread about reconnecting with tarot. ( Those of you that responded were great! Thank you! ) My next big decision comes down to how I want to interpret the cards. And after some mental debate, I came to the conclusion there there seems to be three directions I could take, and all three of them seem like good ways to follow.

The original meanings. That is, the meaning that the deck creator's intended for each card. In my view, while the cards belong to us, they are permanently infused with the creators energy and intention. Rather than modify the meanings, we could use them as they were intended. Similar to using a butter knife as a screwdriver.

Modern meanings. Many decks are quite old, and were created in a different time and culture. Because of this, well known meanings have formed and changed over the decades. They have evolved in such a way as to keep up with our ever-changing world. A good example of this is the fool. In many of the very early decks, the fool was for the most part an idiot. Over time, this has changed into someone who is free spirited and carefree.

Intuitive meanings. Many times, the images on the cards stirs an emotional or memory based response within us. Without having ever even looked at the LWB, the scenes are part of a story. We can immerse ourselves within the scene, and draw from that information. And example here is from the Deviant Moon deck. It's one that I enjoy a lot, but have never put a lot of time into studying it. I'm looking at the ten of pentacles. To me, it seems as if the old man could easily defeat the younger child and is likely aware that there is a person below the table interfering with the game. I would say the old man is enjoying the time with the younger, and the younger is enjoying learning from the old man.

I know that this is a decision I must ultimately make for myself, but I'm curious about the opinions of others. What path did you folks choose, and what was some of the motivating factors for reading that way?

Click to expand...

I think you will find that people do not necessarily agree about the meaning of 'intuitive reading'.

I also don't believe that the types of reading are as clear cut as you've defined them.

Nevertheless, if you start from one of those points you'll probably find that your style and approach will change with experience, and it may always vary according to each situation.

Tarot is a system of symbolic meaning. It doesn't hurt to learn the basic structures and their history. There are, generally speaking, three schools of thought: Marseille, Rider Waite Smith and Thoth. If you are really interested in tarot, sooner or later you will learn something of these approaches. It's all very interesting and won't hurt your ultimate choices. Not everyone agrees about the basics of each of these systems either .

I read differently according to each deck that I use. Marseille decks are very different from RWS or Thoth based decks. In any reading, I might use a mixture of system and intuition. Life, study and experience have given me my own psychological and spiritual references.

You'll find your own way. The ultimate test as to your effectiveness will be the resonance you get from your sitters. And don't forget, that the feedback you get may have nothing to do with what you say. It may be as much to do with HOW you say it, how you engage.

If you don't read for others, the test will be with that inner sounding board we all have, or are in the process of developing. We all come from different places.

And don't forget to enjoy yourself