Tarot, the mind, and when the mind's messed up.

[Teranar]

Over the past week I have had two interesting stories with reading tarot while influenced by something, and I would like your looks on it and whatnot. The first episode comes from Ravan, who if you didn't know is one of my students. Recently, one of her overdramatic make a huge deal over everything friends made a half arsed suicide attempt to get attention after her boyfriend dumped her (For being a drama queen). So Ravan tried to ignore all the BS surrounding all this by getting high. While after this I had a *SERIOUS* talk about doing these things, while she was high, and abnormally happy, she decided she'd try a reading! On me! ... I won't share what it was about or the results because its very personal, but she's been the most accurate I've seen just about anyone, and she did it while almost constantly giggling and kept saying how everything was absolutely clear to her.

The SECOND incident involved me getting my mind messed up. This weekend I was at a convention where at one point I got hooked up with a nice drink, and set myself up in a corner with a table, grabbed some victems, and went at it, and within seconds I had a crowd of people who were drunk or trying to get drunk, my victem the latter. So I accidently started what I'm gonna call the tarot drinking game, which I'll post under Fun and Games, and went at it. From what I can remember, the more I drank the better I got, but my victem also got drunker and less able to understand me. Now, while I didn't get drunk (Thanks to the liver of the gods I had to drink lots of water and pee about 10 times in an hour) I DID feel a bit different than I am normally while reading. I also remember my gypsy godmother sipping wine while she read, and I just wonder if these things messing with your mind somehow makes it easier to channel the feel of the tarot from the cards into words.

Claiming he's not drunk,
Teranar

[Le_Corsair]

Alcohol's legendary ability to relax inhibitions strikes again! It appears that in both instances, the relaxing effects of drugs and alcohol overcame the natural reserve you have about doing a reading well, so your intuition was able to make itself felt more strongly than otherwise.

Cheers, and may the skin of your leg never cover a banjo!*

Bob :THERM






*Old celtic toast, bowdlerised to prevent my being banned. :)

[skytwig]

I would think the ideal is to attain such clarity with a sober mind and spirit......

Poisoning the brain and liver and spirit does not appeal to me as means that is truly compatible with the energy work necessary for 'reading'.

Justification, by the way, is a form of denial in alcoholism.......

[Umbrae]

There is a point, when altering the normal blood chemistry, that readings become spot on. It’s a window that often closes quickly. Many spend years trying to reopen it, and destroy their livers or minds in the process.

The introduction of Alkaloids or Acidics will affect your readings. Often when ego is removed from the picture – readings get real accurate. Further, once the chemistry alters enough for the analytic mind to go to sleep and the right brain take over…often – you can hear the spaces between the cards with absolute clarity.

But often the window closes…to early…and lives are spent in a futile effort…

it is possible to 'be there' without altering blood chemistry...

[DeLani]

I'm coming from the other end of the spectrum here, Skytwig, that I don't necessarily think it is anymore "poison" than caffeine, chocolate, or sugar. Not great for you, but certainly not poison, either.
As was stated with the alcohol being able to soften the inhibitions, that can be a help. But in higher doses, alcohol increases the ego-sense, which is usually counter-productive to reading others and trying to look at the big picture.
On the other hand, natural entheogens (psychedelics) have been used in every culture throughout the world to highten and sharpen intuitive/spiritual powers. Peyote, Cannabis, Psylociben mushrooms, and Datura are just some of the more common (and commonly known) examples of this.
I think that the western culture's fanatical rejection of altered states of consciousness is wrong and actually keeps us as people from exploring the many realms of reality both within and outside of our minds.
For more information about entheogens, here is a link to a site about the late Terrance McKenna: http://www.deoxy.org/mckenna.htm
Check it out.

[Nevada]

.

[jmd]

There are a number of issues which, to my way of thinking, are all intertwined here. For my own sake as to how to address them, I'll attempt to separate them into little boxes - even though life may be far for integrated than this: the issue of the usage of mind-altering substances to assist the reading;

western society's (or societies') view of the taking of substances which alter consciousness;

developing reading skills and maintaining awareness.Though there are also other aspects to all this, so far these three seem to be the more central issues.

There is no doubt that the usage of foodstuffs, poisons and other products can be used in certain well developed ritualistic use in certain contexts. As an obvious example, the way wine is used as one of the Mithraic-Christian sacraments.

Likewise, certain substances have been used to assist the shaman in various specific cultural settings.

One thing common to these is the absolute respect, reverence and awe which the practitioner has towards the sacred. When it is profaned, abuse, excesses and problems arise. Witness, again, the alcoholism of the proverbial Irish Catholic priest (of course, most are in fact not).

So part of the problem is at times not so much taking the substance, but taking it in ways which are somewhat toxic and for at times purely egocentric, escapist, hedonist, epicurean or narcissist 'reasons'.

This moves us onto the second point. I do not think that our society has, as such, a totally anti-mind-altering view - witness its view of meditation. Rather, it has such a physicalist approach that it seems to negate anything which diminishes the beauty and functioning of the body. If there were no side-effects, could be specific as to when it took effects (example, sleep as in Valium, or in the pangs of childbirth, or...), or it increased the functions of any part of the body (as many of my unsolicited e.mails tell me), the drug may yet be viewed as acceptable - as long as it altered consciousness in only specific conditions, and terminated its effects as one engaged back in the 'normal' world of car-driving, etc..

Again, here we talk of drugs, whether it be alcohol or other, outside of a context which uses it as sacred, and hence with high respect, substance.

Partly because of what I have just said, I am personally not in favour of consuming alcohol as a game and then engaging in a reading. By all means, playing with the Tarot, reading into any set of images as many weird and wonderful stories as one can, or even, in some cases, partaking of a little alcohol as part of one's preparation - and limiting its consumption to such - may have its place.

Sure drugs may unveil parts which remain normally veiled, or allow one's narrative to flow in ways which surprises oneself. But at what cost?

[augursWell]

As much as I admire games of all sorts, drinking games being among those(the game not the drinking), I have to say that I made a personal decision about such things. If you can't enhance your understanding and sprituality without the use of drugs/alcohol/psychotropics then why bother? The goal is a happy, healthy life for all involved, in my opinion. That's not to say that I don't have wine or beer on occasion, I just don't do it as part of a divination process.

It is like this woman I know who has a reputation for being "psychic". She doesn't use cards but is very spot on with what she tells people. She also has a brain tumor which she is dieing from. Some say this is why she has the ability. But I certainly wouldn't wish a brain tumor on myself or anyone else for the sake of enhanced psychic ability.

I wasted my money on a recent film here in the US called "The Order" in which one scene has hooded figures hanging on crosses who are literally hung whenever the evil master wants to foretell the future. (sorry, I considered not even posting this drivel but I'm going to make a point). Master need some info on the future, snaps his fingers, hooded person dies while spieling out a divination of the future. I was totally sickened by the whole concept, not to mention the movie. The apparent point here being that a human life is worthless and that the divination provided is somehow more important, at least to the plot of the film.

My point? Divination, oracular wisdom, foretelling the future, spiritual insight is not worth negative, destructive actions. If you want to experiment with your mind that is up to you, but make sure and learn the skills of that experience yourself and don't count on the artificial substance to do it for you. Learn the lesson and incorporate it, then ditch the mind altering substance.

[Kiama]

I can see where Teranar's coming from. But I can also see where everybody else is coming from at the same time, since I kind of ascribe to all the views.

You see, I personally do not like drugs (when I say personally, I mean as something for myself, I don't mind others doing what they want to do.) and I do not drink alcohol for the purpose of getting drunk anymore. In fact, I very rarely drink it anyway, mainly because it's too damn expensive, most of it tastes digusting, etc.

However, I have done many readings after I've had a couple of glasses of wine, so I have been sober enough to not let my ego get in the way, yet relaxed.

A bit of background: I used to be a social phobic. I still am, though to a much much lesser extent. Social situations with strangers and large groups of people used to scare me witless. Doing readings for these people scared me even more. Now, this fear totally blocked my readings, and they were rubbish, but I found that I had to relax, and what is the natural way to relax in a pub? A couple of glasses of wine. As a result, I became more relaxed, less scared, and read very well.

Now, I guess my point is not to say that as a forerunner to all divination one needs to drink some alcohol. My point is to say that I don't think we should condemn the action. Different strokes for different folks: you try reading for strangers when you're a social phobic.

That said, I agree with augerswell that one should not become reliant on a substance to make one 'good' at divination. It's a form of dependency, and in the long run could lead to bad consequences. I also don't think that getting blind drunk in order to read Tarot is a good thing, and since I have virtually no experience of drugs, I guess I can't comment.

Kiama

[Dark_angel]

I do not think that illegal drugs are beneficial under any circumstances. You might be able to read 'better' under the influence, but how do you actually know that you're not just spouting drivel if you are high? Mind-altering chemicals do exactly what they say - change your perception. So you may think that you've given the best reading ever, when actually what you've said isn't relevant at all. Taking illegal drugs at any time is a bit silly, but taking them to try to elevate your reading ability? I would rather spend my life working towards a way of reading accurately without needing chemicals, than have a quick-fix in the form of hallucinogens, etc.

I would possibly exclude cannabis from this rant, as it is safer than many legal drugs and does not have the same negative effects (to my knowledge).

I do drink, but I would never let myself read when drunk, as I would be too afraid of talking rubbish. This is why, if I'm going out and I know I'm likely to drink, I leave my decks at home.

I'm a sufferer of social phobia too, and I agree that a couple of drinks loosens you up and lets you relax.

I'm sorry if this seems like a complete rant, but this is a subject very close to my heart. Several good friends of mine have ruined their lives taking drugs in pursuit of spiritual enlightenment and mind-expansion. One, before I knew him, was chased out of a state for dealing, and he is now having to consider the possibility of going back there because he can't afford to stay in Britain. Another has lost her university degree, her best friend and her job, and is incapable of relating to people who don't take drugs. I will not stop being their friend because of this, but it has made me aware of the very real risks of taking drugs.

I just don't think that anything can be worth what I've watched them sacrifice, not even being able to read accurately.

[catti]

Originally posted by Dark_angel
how do you actually know that you're not just spouting drivel if you are high? Mind-altering chemicals do exactly what they say - change your perception. So you may think that you've given the best reading ever, when actually what you've said isn't relevant at all.
I do drink, but I would never let myself read when drunk, as I would be too afraid of talking rubbish.


i just wanted to say how do we ever know what we are saying is not rubbish? it really isnt up to us the readers is it? it is up to the querent to decide what is drivel and what is relevant.....

warning * much drivel to follow*
on to the subject of divination under the influence and more broadly using drugs to tap into a well of *truth*....without a doubt a mind altering substance can aide one in locating one of the various windows out there that allow you to *see* . and without a doubt the problem is control. which is why the ritualistic and traditional shamanistic uses of various substances were structured and had/have so much preparation. Another way of putting this is for every sucessfull william burroughs how many thousands of junkies od'd doing nothing with their life let alone the art they were pursuing? i was having this very conversation last night, i was talking about how i have lost a lot of my originality and creativity in my art , after years of making things and selling them; after the children and daily routine, i have just put it aside and now that i try and pick it up again there is nothing, i look at a blank peice of paper and see nothing, i can copy other art with accuracy but that is not what i want...and i went on to say i know a way to kick start all of that but i am not sure it is worth it...and i was talking about drug use..thinking along the lines of creating an environment where you have all your tools around you and you purposely take a substance in order to *enhance* your awarness/abilities...to deny that it works is silly but to deny the risks involved is even more foolish.
like most quick fixes (no pun intended) it doesnt work over the long run.

any of you ever read the Earthsea trilogy by Ursula LeGuin? in the 3rd book the magic is failing in the world, the words have no meaning any longer...and many former magicians believing that all magic was a lie, in desperation now use a substance called hazia to jump over the wall in there minds and do what their magic used to allow them to do. meanwhile their earthly bodies waste away , laying in the streets covered in flies and filth as the mind wanders in hazia induced dreams, thinking it has found something not realizing how lost it is.
good series of books for anyone who likes fantasy/sci fi

[Nevada]

.....

[skytwig]

Nevada..... very thoughtful words, as are all the posts here....

I am an 'old hippie' and we did use drugs for spiritual reasons, back in the days.....

Now, i do not imbibe at all..... I meditate daily and I am a Reiki healer..... for me, these are powerful tools that have proven to be better than any 'natural' drug i previously utilized..... that, of course, is for me.....

Having worked in the drug treatment industry for 5 years, I have seen so many people die from substance abuse.... it is a global problem that isn't getting any better..... adolescents especially scare me with their willingness to experiment with anything and everything.

I am amazed at the depth of Spirit.... we have much to explore and pull from... most of us have barely scratched the surface of its glorious potential.... One factor I find that is important is committment and consistent practice... It is a devotion of our lives that demands time and energy to yield the desired awareness.....

For me, drugs are an attempt to achieve a short cut.... yes, there may be some sort of opening.... but, as Umbrae pointed out, it is a window ... and windows close.....

Meditation, if we devote ourselves to it, can result in Walking Meditation, a meditation, an awareness, that is continually available.... many have achieved that... Brother Lawrence, the Dalai Lama. Those who practice Akido and Tai chi speak lovingly of their continual Presence.

It is an Awareness that comes by Practice, daily Practice. I do not believe there are short cuts and I no longer strive to achieve short cuts. As the Tarot demonstrates to us, over and over again, such spiritual practice is a Journey that requires attention and dedication.

The Devil card warns us of over indulgence and impulsive behaviors and for many of us, that is a dangerous path..... I think of Poe and Dylan Thomas and John Bonham (drummer for Led Zepplin) and I grieve that we lost them so soon to drug abuse.... Dieing from substance abuse is an ugly death.....

Thank goodness the Tarot does not encourage drug use.... what I see in its Story is a Call for exploration of the beauteous spirit we each hold, individual, unique gems of love and creativity and awareness..... we have so much, so very much. We do well to simply dive into it and discover what is There

[Khatruman]

Originally posted by skytwig
I am amazed at the depth of Spirit.... we have much to explore and pull from... most of us have barely scratched the surface of its glorious potential.... One factor I find that is important is committment and consistent practice... It is a devotion of our lives that demands time and energy to yield the desired awareness.....

For me, drugs are an attempt to achieve a short cut.... yes, there may be some sort of opening.... but, as Umbrae pointed out, it is a window ... and windows close..... There is so much I would love to write on this. As a teacher, I am constantly bombarded with the reverence for drug culture among many students in the school. Partially it stems from that natural teenage rebellion: society says it is forbidden to me; therefore, I am going to do it to show my independence. However, there is also that brief window into the deeper world that can be offered, that glimpse into bliss that gets people craving it more and more.

I agree here with skytwig's calling it a shortcut. I usually tell students that these mind-altering substances do one of two things: deaden brain activities or stimulate brain chemicals. The joy of the deadening (such as with alcohol) is that it frees one from the mental anguishes in life, and offers a glimpse into the bliss of no worries, a hakuna matata kind of thing. To expand a la Lion King, Simba's problems of guilt aren't solved at the source, they are simply medicated by a new attitude. He hasn't faced his problem. The joy of the stimulants is that they release blissful chemicals in the brain. And, I note to students, it isn't the drugs that give you the euphoria, it is your own brain chemicals.

Both of these results can be obtained without the drugs, since it is really the numbing or stimulation of the brain that causes the bliss. Drugs provide a shortcut. Fine and dandy. However what other side effects are inherent in the taking of those drugs? Many here have listed some of the deep dangers in them.

Also, by handing the controls over to the drugs, one also loses the steering wheel. Getting it back to the original post: perhaps these mind alterants can enhance one's access to the instinctual depths of tarot reading, but one under the influence has now lost his or her control over expressing, interpreting, and understanding these deep insights.

Anything worth doing is worth working for. Take the deeper path, gain the deeper experience.

[Dark_angel]

I really didn't put that very well, did I? Where I am, cannabis is virtually legalised (and about time too! lol), so when I was talking about illegal drugs, cannabis was not one I considered. It has been found to be medically beneficial, as you said, so I suppose that statement of mine was a bit wrong. I keep forgetting that it's still technically illegal.

However, there aren't just the health risks to consider when thinking about taking illegal drugs; if you are caught, you end up with a criminal record for possession, or possibly even dealing if you have enough. A record like that could ruin your life.

Also, what about your friends and family? The people who have to stand by and watch as you take these drugs (again, not including cannabis)? It's very difficult.

I'm not a fanatical anti-drugs person, I'm completely aware of the fact that two of the most dangerous known drugs are legal and widely available - cigarettes and alcohol. I'm simply questioning if it's worth all the problems associated with them.

I know plenty of true stories about drug use (I'm a medical student, and we read a lot about them). For example, a man injected cocaine into his genitals, intending it to expand his mind and sexual appetite. His injection technique was faulty, he gave himself gangrene and lost his legs, his genitals and several fingers. All in pursuit of expanding his mind.
Or how about Leah Betts? I'm willing to bet anyone from Britain has heard of her. If you haven't, basically, she took E and died.

More people die from alcohol and cigarettes than from illegal drugs, but these statistics don't take into account all the pain and confusion suffered by drug-misusers, their friends and families.

xxx

[punchinella]

It's probably overkill at this point, but I would like to respond to DeLani's words (see page 1):

"On the other hand, natural entheogens (psychedelics) have been used in every culture throughout the world to highten and sharpen intuitive/spiritual powers. Peyote, Cannabis, Psylociben mushrooms, and Datura are just some of the more common (and commonly known) examples of this.
I think that the western culture's fanatical rejection of altered states of consciousness is wrong and actually keeps us as people from exploring the many realms of reality both within and outside of our minds."

I just want to point out that there's a HUGE difference between the traditionally controlled ceremonial/shamanic use of psychadelics common to so many indiginous cultures around the world, & casual 'party-atmosphere' use of these same substances by largely adolescent/twenty-something Westerners. --A HUGE difference . . . I can't emphasize this point enough. I have indeed 'been there, done that' & used the same argument, in my early twenties, that DeLani is presently using to justify my (ab)use of substances way too powerful for the time & place . . . & I can attest that there comes a point in that path when one realizes, clearly & incontrovertably, that such justifications will no longer do. The forces within these substances need to be treated with RESPECT . . . & that's something that 99.9% of all Western users are simply not in a position to provide. We don't have anything like the cultural framework necessary to support legitimate use.

P.

[Teranar]

Um, wow, this went suprisingly far, and beyond what I thought it would. I was just curious about everyone's views on readings with /without an altered mind, and it has gone beyond that into our drug rampant society. I don't drink regularly BTW, if I've been drunk it wasn't for very long, but while it did change the way I did my reading, I'm not sure if I should keep doing things like that, and I probably won't as long as alchol costs money, yet I'm forced to remember my gypsy godmother, with her two cups, one filled with water, the other with red wine, and when she swore off wine she sounded like a baptist preacher, until she found a loophole in her swearing and switched to scotch. (But when she did any readings after noon were not to be taken seriously, she was really out of it from the huge gap between the alchol content of wine and scotch) So if I ever tried to make a final decision on this I would be torn between two worlds, and I would always remember things like that. I thank you for your comments - I've taken a lot from them, for things like alchol, against, wishy-washy, and non-commentative. (I'm still irked at Ravan about the drugs though - but I can't say anything to her because at the moment I'm sick with some throat thing and can't talk. I make raspy, unintellegabe whispers instead)

A much sober soothsayer,
Teranar

[DeLani]

Originally posted by punchinella

I just want to point out that there's a HUGE difference between the traditionally controlled ceremonial/shamanic use of psychadelics common to so many indiginous cultures around the world, & casual 'party-atmosphere' use of these same substances by largely adolescent/twenty-something Westerners. --A HUGE difference

I agree totally. But I think it unfair to blame the victim in this sense. Our "mainstream" society tells us that all drugs are bad, evil, etc., and offers very few models of contientious, conscious entheogen use. So of course, stupid teenagers simply try to ingest as much as they think they can hold, since that is the only model of drug/alcohol use they are given.
The forces within these substances need to be treated with RESPECT . . . & that's something that 99.9% of all Western users are simply not in a position to provide. We don't have anything like the cultural framework necessary to support legitimate use.
I don't know where you get this number. So many people love to point to their experience in rehab, or working to help addicts, as "proof" of how drugs inevitably, eventually, take over the minds of users. I assure you, for every one user who ends up in rehab, there are hundreds of others who don't get addicted, who just smoke a joint/drink a couple of beers in the evening, or drop acid a couple of times a year on special occasions, and every day continue going to their jobs and providing for their families. You don't ever hear about them because under this prohibition, they are in such fear of losing everything - their jobs, their families, their freedom - that they must remain quietly in the closet, grudgingly allowing the propaganda machine to continue to churn out lies. And it is among these quiet people that the culture of truly contientious "drug" use lies. It is a truly hidden, underground culture.
Back more in line with the original topic, maybe we should categorize "drugs" not by their legality or illegality, but by their effects. Terrence McKenna proposes dividing them into "domimator" and "partnership" drugs. Dominator drugs tend to inflate the ego and promote violence. Dominator drugs include alcohol, methamphetimine, cocaine, PCP, and others. All synthetic, incedentally.
Partnership drugs, on the other hand, work to dissolve the ego, and promote loving interaction - may even be aphrodisiacs. These include Cannabis, ecstacy, 'shrooms, LSD, etc.
That is not to say some dingleberry can't act like an a$$ under the influence of partnership drugs, or that someone can't be loving and sweet under the influence of dominator drugs, but the overall, general effect is what is used to create the classification.
And of course, any substance that is enjoyable to take can be addictive. The key, as it has been pointed out, is knowing the proper context for use.
I hope this sheds more light on my point of view.

[full deck]

Personally, I have seen too much waste from drugs (all) to even consider it also I work on sustained forms of meditation and visualization that are not possible (very well) if I'm snookered.

I really don't think there is any substance out here that can substitute for developing one's own skills in getting away from the subversive five senses. It is very much like music; you can either play or you can't and you can't talk about it too much except as an afterthought because doing it is what it is all about. Non-players never understand this and I think that people who have not made some concerted, consistent effort at developing their abilities might think the same thing about using drugs (IMHO).

A lucky shot, a moment of clarity -- they happen but sustained sight and understanding; it is all right there in one's self. I would be careful of which tool I used to dig it out with.

[punchinella]

--In response to DeLani: Note that in my original post I did not make any references whatsoever to addiction issues, to rehab scenes, etc. etc. in my argument against the use of psychadelics . . . I am fully aware that none of these drugs are addictive in a physical sense . . . I am ALSO aware that LSD, psilocybic mushrooms, marijuana, & so forth are very unlikely to cause aggresive/antisocial/violent behaviors in those who use them (quite the contrary). Classing these substances in the same breath w/, say, PCP, coke, or heroine . . . is definitely uninformed. But--my argument is that with the possible exception of marijuana (inherently more benign than alcohol, in my opinion, when large quantities are in question) this still doesn't make them appropriate for casual use. & in the developed 'West' (I use the term cautiously) we don't, unfortunately, have the guides, the teachings, the traditions, the ceremonies, above all else the purposes to make use anything but casual. Of course this is just my opinion, & bear in mind that it may well be informed by just one bad trip too many. But we are talking about very powerful spiritual forces . . . & it does seem disrespectful, to me, to toy with such forces. In regards to the 'propaganda machine churning out lies' . . . Well, that's fine, I don't have a problem with the propaganda machine, since anybody who cares is going to figure out the truth anyway . . . & since the vast majority of the population will probably never--& I mean never!--have anything even remotely resembling a good reason to ingest the substances in question.

--What do I mean by a good reason: well, in the old societies psychadelic use is generally associated with shamanic activity: that is, traffic on alternative planes *for the benefit, help, &/or healing of other members of society* . . . How many of those who 'drop acid a couple of times a year, on special occasions' do so because they need insight re:the psychic/spiritual needs of an ailing grandmother? Moreover: somewhere I recall reading that many of the great old shamans, asked about substance use, characterized it as a once or twice in a lifetime thing . . . an initiatory thing, but something that, once experienced, doesn't really need to be ever done again . . . ??

In many ways what we do with tarot--being divination--is much like what a shaman does, but since, with tarot, archetypal imagery is already provided--'tripping' seems to me like real overkill. (In all fairness, DeLani, I know you're not arguing for it . . . at least I don't think you're arguing for it--tripping & card reading at the same time, that is . . . )

& several people have made very good points about the down-side of utilizing substance as a short-cut to a place that can be accessed through meditation, etc., as well, so I won't reiterate now--P.

[jmd]

I have already made my main point earlier in the thread, but thought I would like to add another, somewhat peripheral to the main thread, but mentioned a number of times in various posts.

A number of people argue that marijuana is not as dangerous as alcohol. I fundamentally disagree. Even in small doses, it can in a significant number of people precipitate a psychotic episode. Also, the half-life of residual chemicals is quite long. Ie, it raintains stored in the brain for a prolonged period of time.

Alcohol, taken over prolonged periods, or in large quantities, may of course also lead to disastrous consequences, and the number of victims to the violence it may unleash on the consumers towards even their 'loved ones' is a major cause for concern in our society. Here, however, we are talking of consumption which far exceeds what may be considered reasonable.

THC, fortunately, is not consumed in equivalent proportion by an equivalent number of people. The detriment to individuals would otherwise be clear, and more severe, I suggest, than equivalent alcohol consumption.

But to return to the thread.

The person may speak words blessed with divinatory significance when intoxicated with various substances. But then it is the words spoken which are blessed, not the speaker.

[Dark_angel]

I realise that this doesn't count as good evidence to support any point of view, but I thought I'd tell you a bit about the activities of some of the people I used to consider my friends.

Firstly, we lived in a "drug-friendly" environment, so there was no stated "this is bad", just "this is what these drugs are, this is what they do, they're illegal, but if you want to experiment, go ahead as long as you are informed". We used to smoke the occasional joint before going out, as a social occasion.

*Before I go on, despite what I'm about to tell you, I do not believe the stories that cannabis is always a gateway drug, although I do recognise that it has side-effects."

I stopped at that level (I was aware of the side-effects and made a choice), and watched as my friends changed completely.

The least affected spent his year at uni smoking in his room and watching videos, and dropped out. However, he's now away from the uni environment, has sorted himself out a bit (no rehab) and is going to Australia soon to work abroad before maybe coming back to do a new degree.

The ones who stayed have changed completely from the people I knew, to the point where most are unable to be friends to me, even though I'm still a friend to them (by this I mean, helping people out when they're in trouble, meeting them for lunch or coffee, listening and laughing with them). I gave you a couple of the least extreme stories in an earlier post. Rest assured they get far worse.

I think that this reflects on society's attitudes towards young people, not just about drugs. The police are portrayed as evil scum trying to stop people having fun, so any advice they give is laughed off (I know people who went to police lectures on drugs while they were high, sat in the front row and heckled them). Parents and other adults are shown as boring, out of touch and restrictive, when this is not the case, and this leaves young people with a very twisted view of society. Add to this illegal chemicals with no "How to take" instructions, which can also be used as a way of making money, and you end up with a very popular and misused activity.

By now you may be thinking "Where does she live?!" Well, I live in an affluent area of a well-respected university city. If this is what goes on as a common occurrence HERE, I can only imagine what it's like in deprived areas of the country.

Sorry, I keep feeling the need to rant about this subject. Feel free to delete it if you like.

Luv, Fi. xxx

[Cassiopeia]

This is a really intresting thread, and something that I feel quite strongly about for myself.

I work as a counsellor, and I tend to think that when I am counselling I am bringing in psyhcic awareness...I feel that empathy has strong conections with intuition and psychic senses. I would never go into a counselling situation having drunk alcohol or taken any kind of drug..clearly, that would be very unethical and I would be slung out of the job very quickly if I did. I am acctually careful not to drink coffee before I go into sessions for the same reasons that I have a responsibility to facilitate a safe enviroment and I cannot do that if I my mind is chemically altered.

Tarot reading is different, but the way I tend to read brings in using empathy and intuition and my one to one readings, even online, can stir a lot of emotion within the people I am reading. I think that the same responsibility applies to tarot reading. What I am doing is offering some form of guidance to people who may well be in a very vulnerable position....so I apply the ethics of counselling to my tarot. I have a responisibilty to my sitters.

I can understand the points about chemicals freeing you up to read more accurately, and I think these are good points that I would aggree with. However, I feel strongly that I need a to maintain a level of censorship within readings. If I become aware of a painful situation, I need to how I best phrase what I am aware of to cause the least distress. Sometimes, in group situations, it feels important to be really aware of not exposing that persons inner most secrets to a group of other people, phrasing my insights in such a way that the person I am reading for knows I understand thier situation and only that person. I need to remain sober to do that to the best of my ability.

If I know I am going to a party with friends were I may be asked to read, I dont drink until after I have read. Looking into someone else's life brings with it responsibilty. I tend to liken it to being invited into someones home....I might feel that its ok to look at the pictures on the walls, the way they have thier furnature...but it isnt ok to go rifling through thier drawers and cupboards. Hope that makes sense, lol. Anyway, thats my two penneth.

[Khatruman]

Originally posted by Cassiopeia
Looking into someone else's life brings with it responsibilty. I tend to liken it to being invited into someones home....I might feel that its ok to look at the pictures on the walls, the way they have their furniture...but it isnt ok to go rifling through thier drawers and cupboards. Hope that makes sense, lol. Anyway, thats my two penneth. I think you made a lot of good sense. Indeed, if you are going to take tarot reading seriously, you must approach it as anyone who performs a social service: you are handling a person's life, and, as you aptly pointed out, if they come to you for a reading, they are most likely quite vulnerable. One book I read somewhere pointed out what should be common sense to a reader: people come to you for a reading when they have a problem, not when they are fine and stable. Keeping that in mind helps you as a reader become more empathetic.

A reader with lowered inhibitions may be more open to the readings instinctual messages, but also may be less in tune with the ramifications of simply blurting out those messages. A great part of reading involves not simply seeing the connections, but how one treats those revelations. A good reader is a great counselor also.

Thank you, Cass. I think your response itself exemplifies the care with which all should handle such conversations.

[punchinella]

Yes, Casseopeia, you make a very, very good point. When querants come to us for readings, generally this is because they have problems & are feeling vulnerable . . . How can we possibly respond to this with the care which basic ethics would seem to demand, if our judgment has been dulled--our consciousness/conscience in any way altered? Issues of the effectiveness (or, not) of using substance as a short-cut to open the door aside . . . your argument, in & of itself, in my mind precludes all further questions about whether or not use is appropriate. Sort of sad that nobody (myself included) managed to think of/bring it up earlier . . .

P.

[DeLani]

OK, so I know I'm probably going to be put up there with Osama bin Laden for saying this, but here goes.
I can see that there seems to be a general consensus among everybody that doing any mind-altering substance makes you dull, stupid, etc., etc. I do agree that *some* substances, like alcohol or meth, do make you more dumb.
But I do not believe that all mind-altering substances - entheogens - do that. I believe that the altering of one's consciousness actually can (if done with intention) make you more aware of the big picture, to take you out of the confines of your own limited self. And I don't believe that only Indians or Lappland Shamans can do this. Every human has this capacity to learn from an altered state of consciousness, and that is why the Goddess put these plants and fungi here.
Now, to the point of doing readings while under the influence: I don't think it's a good idea to do readings drunk, or under the influence of dominator drugs, since the ego is inflated and inhibition might be down, so you aren't going to be in the right state of mind to be sensitive to the querent's needs. But then, context is the key. I did a couple Samhain readings last night for close friends, and had more than a little wine in me, as they did, and the readings were wonderful.
It is possible to do wonderful readings, with amazing insight, while utilizing the tools of entheogens to alter the consciousness to see outside the self. Very powerful, real empathic bonds between querent and reader, or between the reader's conscious and unconscious, can be achieved the help of Goddess-blessed sacramental entheogens (please note - I don't speak for all Pagans/Wiccans here - this is strictly my opinion). Context again: I wouldn't do this at a public place, reading for complete strangers. The ego provides a very necessary protection in cases like that.
I know I am howling to the wind here. But I do respect those who feel *any* altered state is the wrong state to be in. To each their own. I of course do over 99% of my readings stone cold sober. I think that the key here is to recongnize that each person's choice should be honored, even if we don't agree with it.
Happy Samhain,
D.

[Balsamo]

When I was reading, I was often hired as party entertainment - and the people I was reading for were usually well lubricated. As I've said elsewhere, at the time I was practicing Cold Reading (although I didn't know that was what it was called).

It helped the readings along, that the client was a bit tipsy while I was soberer.

[vision777]

when i was 18 and i first picked up my hanson- roberts deck. i remember leaving them under my pillow for at least a month before opening it. then one night after that month had pass i just remember i had the tarot cards under my pillow. i was high on weed and i remember laying out all the cards by their suit with my eden gray book mastering the tarot i think that was the name next to me . i remember having the feeling that i had seen these cards before. which i know i didnt but for some strange reason i felt these cards were meant for me. it was weird i remember picking up the three of cups and saying yeah look at these girl gossiping. i was so high it felt like i was in a dream. that was my first tarot card i deciefer with out looking at the book. and to me its very colorful.i don't smoke weed anymore because i figure its a waste of money. and plus it makes me feel extra tired in the morinings.but when you mix drugs and drinks you will get a reading you would not normally get when your sober. i guess that makes the cards high too or drunk .

[vision777]

i think the seven of cups from the sacred rose deck descirbes the way using drugs and alcohol will effect a person

[NightWing]

This was a very interesting thread, well worth the reading.

My own view when it comes to tarot and the use of drugs and/or alcohol is perhaps pretty basic.

When I used to drink much more heavily than now, and get up to sing at a party, I could sing like the greatest, and dance like a nightclub star...or so I thought. It was nothing but delusion. I actually sing like a frog and dance about as well as an elephant.

In America, all the enormous use of drugs, legal and otherwise, as well as alcohol, should have made it a spiritual paradise. It is anything but. More delusion.

While I have no hang-ups about the recreational use of mind-altering substances, I don't believe for a moment that it is anything remotely "spiritual" that takes place. When it comes to divining for people who are troubled and facing grave problems, the reader has a responsibility not to be engaging in self-delusion wrought by ingesting external chemicals.

We owe the querent sobriety, clear-headedness, honesty, and our full attention. Save the booze or drugs for socializing later.

[Grizabella]

You know, I've been sober a little over 21 years and one of the most wonderful things I learned in my early years of sobriety was that I can be---and am---all the wonderful things---and much more---in my sober state than I ever was when drinking, although when I was drinking, I thought I had to be under the influence to be those things.

That term "dominator drugs" is interesting. Any substance that alters my mind dominates it, but I suppose when I was drinking, I'd have said alcohol wasn't a "dominator" but that other drugs I didn't prefer were. In my experience, whatever drugs a person doesn't prefer get a bad rap as being worse for mankind than the one they do prefer.

Speaking for myself, I'm absolutely and humbly thrilled and grateful for all the spiritual insights and abilities I've discovered without the use of mind-altering substances.