Aeclectic Tarot Forum - Reading without God/ess

fairyhedgehog

24-12-2003, 05:06

I'm stuck at the moment and I'm looking for some ideas.

My basic problem is that I'm a secular humanist. (That's the same as an atheist, but focussing on what I do believe, not what I don't believe.) This means that I really don't believe that the cards can put us in touch with Spirit, or the divine.

I believe that what I am doing when I read the cards is to use the innate human ability to make sense of things by making up stories. In the past, I've been happy reading for myself on that basis but I can't bring myself to read for other people in case they believe that I am seeing what is 'really' there, instead of looking at things from a different perspective. And now I've lost interest in reading the cards for myself.

So, I would like two things. One is to find out who else out there is also an atheist/humanist/materialist. And the second is to ask for ideas for how to use Tarot when you don't believe in Spirit.

(PS I know we've had similar polls before, but I wanted to take the current temperature of the forum on this :) )

(Edited typo 4/6/06)

miss_apples

24-12-2003, 12:42

I usually put down the cards and then I sit down with one of my spirit guides. Now spirit guides arent like a gaurdian angel, so they arent necessarily a religious thing. Because Im not an athiest...but I dont really believe in a religion either.

Moongold

24-12-2003, 12:47

Greetings fairyhedgehog -

Your post raises quite a few questions for me about the nature of "unbelief" in God and the meaning of spirit.

You are such a kind, sometimes very witty, and generous spirit yourself - It seems to me that, even without believing, you demonstrate the qualities of a spiritual person.

I know that is not what you asked but that is what I see.

Best wishes of the season -

Moongold

Nevada

24-12-2003, 13:13

fairyhedgehog,

I answered other, because I use one or all or none of these methods when reading. Sometimes I just don't know where the answers are coming from. I work with my imagination a lot (writing fiction), and I understand your concern to some degree. There are times when I think, well, maybe I'm just making this up!

It's possible you can come at this from a more scientific perspective. (I'm not a very scientific person myself, so forgive my ignorance if I mis-state something here. Any students of science on the forum, feel free to correct me!)

There are forces that hold matter and the Universe together, which Physicists and Astronomers have identified or at least theorized about. Those subatomic particles called gluons and luxons, energy that we can't see at all, but which keeps our bodies together, and the Earth together, and keeps them doing what they do. If you read in these subjects, about the more recent research and theories, you might find that you develop a kind of wonder, and a new regard for what the chaos of deliberately shuffling cards might produce.

For me, this all just reinforces my belief in God/dess/Spirit, but for you it may at least provide enough faith in the unknown forces and energies of the universe to help you want to read again.

Best wishes!
Nevada

Tallarico

24-12-2003, 13:20

I don't often use tarot to *predict* the future, but once I do a spread about something past or present, cards fall into meaningful positions and make sense to me.

Diana

24-12-2003, 13:25

fairyhedgehog: I am a "believer". However, I think the quantum physics theory that Nevada is talking about is what makes Tarot work. So perhaps you should look into quantum physics?

Why don't you buy the book "The Field" by Lynne McTaggert? It explains a lot of this stuff in layman's terms. (She's the head of the magazine called "What Doctors Don't Tell You" - but is also a fine journalist.)

Lee

24-12-2003, 13:50

I voted for "The cards fall randomly but I can make sense of them and apply them to the situation."

I consider myself an agnostic, and I generally approach tarot reading from a humanist perspective. But, I'm not sure why such an approach precludes a more spiritual outlook. In other words, I believe that the cards fall randomly, but I also believe in the possibility of spirituality, and even that by making sense of a random fall of cards, I'm engaging in a spiritual act, without necessarily making a claim that something supernatural is happening. The way I'm saying this, it doesn't make sense at all! I guess what I'm trying to say is that something doesn't have to be "supernatural" to be spiritual.

-- Lee

Moongold

24-12-2003, 13:58

Originally posted by Lee I guess what I'm trying to say is that something doesn't have to be "supernatural" to be spiritual.

This is exactly what I was trying to say!

Moongold

WolfyJames

24-12-2003, 15:21

I do have faith in God, but I do not believe that I read through Him, because you do not need to have faith in anything to be able to read. I do not believe I read through chaos, or anything chaotic, like Umbrae talked about.

I believe that I read through akashic memories, some place in some alternate universe, or plane, where everything is known, the past, the present and the future, everything that exists, that has existed, is yet to be, is there, all knowledge whether it is about science or art. I think we all have the power to access this place, but some people are better than others: scientists, artists, sensitive people, psychics... I don't think of myself as a psychic, because I'm not an intuitive person; I'm an artist and a bit scientific, and I think it is how I have access to this place. I admit that it helped me greatly to have a gifted mother, otherwise, I would have not paid that much attention to all this.

Edit:

I posted in the wrong thread, so I edited this one and wrote this post above

Woof

24-12-2003, 21:44

I voted for other.
To be honest, I haven't a clue why it "works". It doesn't matter why. It just does. I'm kind of a atheist buddhist if that makes sense.
Woof

jmd

25-12-2003, 00:11

I have not read all the responses yet, but thought I would reply by considering fairyhedgehog's post first... I'll probably make another post later too. I just thought that fairyhedgehog's opening post already included so much that to read the other posts first may be, for me, too much to try and combine.

fairyhedgehog mentions that she is a secular humanist. I suppose that part of what this entails is attempting to see the world and each of its events in ways which assume a particular ontological view - a view of the world as composed solely of matter and energy, each being in some way but a different manifestation of the other.

When fairyhedgehog says that when we read the cards she believes that what is occuring is the innate 'human ability to make sense of things by making up stories', I personally also tend to agree. Where we may diverge in our views is the ways in which one explains how this is not only possible, but that the 'stories' are strikingly relevant.

As someone who personally holds a fundamentally spiritual view of the world (though this wasn't always so - and of course people have fluctuatued in both directions in their ongoing views), I would account for both the ability to narrate relevant meaningful stories, and indeed the ways in which events may at times unfold (including, possibly, which cards emerge), as guided, no matter how veiled, by impulses emerging from the spiritual realm. A realm which sustains and makes manifest the physical world, by the way.

Of course, you mention that part of this poll is to find how other secular humanists view and explain their usage of Tarot... I have therefore not responded to the poll, though I tend to be far closer to secular humanist explanations of the physical world than may seem to be the case. Of course, fundamentally, my views as to what sustains such existence varies to the physicalist's view...

As to reading for people, your own description as to what you 'see' will be narrated in ways which will undoubtedly suggest a particular world-view... to begin a reading by suggesting: 'a different way of viewing the situation may be to...' is quite different to stating: 'I see ...'. Even to state that you see the cards as providing images which are means by which the human mind may see a meaningful story or stories unfold, though this reflects human abilities in 'meaning-making', and not what is necessarily the case. Maybe reading for others - especially those with whom you may share a (more or less) common secular humanistic framework, may be quite a refreshing experience.

Personally, to read amongst a group of people who are secular humanists, and see how and in which ways various narratives develop, are connected to one's life situation, and strive to account for not only the 'mechanisms' in which the reading operates, but how useful it may be, would undoubtedly be wonderfully rewarding...

...now to read the other responses. I look forward to seeing how this thread develops :)

MeeWah

25-12-2003, 01:21

I chose "Other".

I do not necessarily view myself as psychic; am not aware of spirit guides but as one who sees the world of man from a spiritual view. I also see/feel an intrinsic connection to all forms of life; that one can connect to a well of bounty beyond the human ken. Whether it be a collective unconscious, akashic records or an un-nameable, that well exists. The perception is likely influenced by early childhood experiences & the influence of my parents who have a deep respect for unseen forces & in the power of the individual to access same.

Thus, I am automatically attentive to all kinds of "signs" or "guidance" in the environment, whether it be in noting the patterns in nature including the activities of animals & of weather; the human activities & events. From "reading" the patterns of clouds, the puddles of rain water, the shadows cast to drapery folds to cards. Everything else preceding the cards have been & are integral parts of the lifetime experiences.

fairyhedgehog

25-12-2003, 05:08

Originally posted by jmd
I have not read all the responses yet, but thought I would reply by considering fairyhedgehog's post first
Thank you jmd. I have read your entire post with interest.

Of course, you mention that part of this poll is to find how other secular humanists view and explain their usage of Tarot... I have therefore not responded to the poll, though I tend to be far closer to secular humanist explanations of the physical world than may seem to be the case.
Please do respond, jmd :) I wanted to give everyone who is interested the chance to respond. Hence including 'other' as an option :)

As to reading for people, your own description as to what you 'see' will be narrated in ways which will undoubtedly suggest a particular world-view... to begin a reading by suggesting: 'a different way of viewing the situation may be to...' is quite different to stating: 'I see ...'. Even to state that you see the cards as providing images which are means by which the human mind may see a meaningful story or stories unfold, though this reflects human abilities in 'meaning-making', and not what is necessarily the case. Maybe reading for others - especially those with whom you may share a (more or less) common secular humanistic framework, may be quite a refreshing experience.
These are very helpful suggestions and I'll go away and think about them. Most of my friends have some sort of spiritual views (I think) I don't actually belong to any group that is 'secular humanist' - it's just the label that comes closest to saying what I currently believe. But I think your ideas are still workable. Thank you :)

fairyhedgehog

25-12-2003, 05:14

Thank you all of you for your thoughts on this :)

I'm interested by all the different approaches to reading the cards and I have read all of your posts with interest even though they are too many to reply to all of you individually.

Lee, I think we may share a very similar worldview.
Moongold, I'm blushing, but thank you :)
Nevada and Diana, I know what you mean, but I'm not sure that way of looking at things works for me. I may have another look at it though, if I can get hold of the book Diana suggests.

Thank you all for your responses :)

DeLani

25-12-2003, 20:59

Both A and C.
I believe the Goddess is within everything, including my intuition, my mind, and the cards. So it all works together.

Indigo Rose

26-12-2003, 04:58

I am a believer in God. I believe the ability to read Tarot comes from a combination of a spiritual energies, psychic gifts, mental aptitude, and a connection to humanity. I also believe that the more in touch we come with all of these forces, the better our readings become.

isthmus nekoi

26-12-2003, 11:42

I chose "Other".

Matter and spirit are essentially the same thing. In Chinese and Japanese language, there is no strict Cartesian distinction b/w the mind and the flesh - the Japanese 'kokoro' for example means both 'mind' and 'heart' simultaneously.
Cards are just pieces of paper, representations, but if they are matter and you accept the premise that matter=spirit, then it follows that they should be spirit as well. I'm sorry, this explanation sucks. But I feel in my gut that this is why divination works.

Why tarot specifically? I'm not sure. b/c it contains an incredibly flexible structure refined and redefined over and over the years? I think ultimately, every successful, enduring structure is based upon the natural world. After all, this is a system that's gone on for aeons. It's possibly our most obvious, proximate system of the way things play out. So how does tarot tap into this system?...

Also, I really don't understand the term "supernatural". Nothing that happens can really go against nature. So how can anything be above nature? That's like calling a human being "inhuman" just b/c they've done something morally objectionable. It doesn't make any sense to me...

Moongold

26-12-2003, 17:42

Originally posted by isthmus nekoi
Also, I really don't understand the term "supernatural". Nothing that happens can really go against nature. So how can anything be above nature? That's like calling a human being "inhuman" just b/c they've done something morally objectionable. It doesn't make any sense to me...

Yes, real spirituality has everything to do with how we act here and now in the real moment of our daily lives. It is about respect, authenticity and the sharing of love and understanding. What else can we relate to but that which is really here now?

Some of us, like MeeWah, have gifts to be sensitive to other dimensions of the here and now, whilst remaining quite grounded in reality. This capacity to see beyond that which we see is often present in other cultures than the West and we have so much to learn from this.

But for people like me, how I relate to others, how giving I am in my thoughts and life, how strong in meeting my responsibilities - these are all the foundation and dynamics of the spiritual life. I am not claiming to be an expert practitioner in this be any means.

In this way I see the most *ordinary* people living the most profoundly spiritual lives.

Some of them would not describe themselves in this way nor even think very much about God or spirituality.

Moongold

Kilted Kat

04-06-2006, 15:38

This is kinda cool, so I am bumping it up --reviving this old thread...

I voted for the one about the pattern. I feel that the energies present in the five elements manifest in foreseeable and predictable archetypal patterns, past present and future.

K:spade:K

magpie9

04-06-2006, 15:53

I voted for meaningful pattern...but I wish I could have voted for other, too. Once the cards are down and I'm reading I hook into something else --psychically--I guess--that refines and connects the information to the person and the situation. It develops into a sense of surety about what I'm seeing/saying, and gives a lot of detail and depth. I disengage it at the end of the reading. So that's the "other" part.

Annabelle

04-06-2006, 17:15

I voted for two options - "I am psychic" and "Other."

By "other," I mean that I feel that I'm channeling/tapping into the universal Archetypes when I read. I'm not a monotheist, nor do I believe in spirits and spirit guides. I do believe in the possibility, even probability of multiple Gods and Goddesses, but I don't adhere to any particular pantheon at the moment.

Really, though, when I'm reading for someone face to face I'm not thinking about any of the above. It's all about me and the person sitting across from me...

Crowqueen

04-06-2006, 19:19

I would have answered (a) and (b), given the opportunity.

I am not sure who gives me the ability to read Tarot, but since I am religious AND believe that psychic abilities are gifts from Above, then it figures that I should attribute the talent of foresight to Whoever made us.

However, as long as you believe what you are getting, the tarot works for anyone, even a sceptic such as my boyfriend (came up perfectly for him!) so I suppose I am firmly in the Other category in that synchronicity can be explained in various ways. My boyfriend is a Catholic, but although he goes to religious events such as Taize I wouldn't say he has thought very deeply about religion, and he doesn't really believe in an activist God. However after meeting me he has started to get more inclined towards looking at his own faith. He wasn't actually that surprised at how accurately the tarot both explained his present and predicted his future - I was using my "fortune-telling" spread and patter with him, and I am fully accepting of the fact that tarot can and does predict what is going to happen tomorrow or in a week's time or in a year's time; I have no problem with that as the information is still cryptic enough to give us latitude to exercise free will; I know roughly what the political future of the UK is, at least for the next year or so, but not knowing how it will happen or when it will occur I still have a role to play in politics; I know full well that my spirit guide has given me several big kicks in the a*** lately to get me moving and making waves out there. In fact the major cause of the depression I have suffered for the last two years is knowing too much rather than too little and not being able to articulate it in any coherent form or back it up with authoritative statistics. Understanding a psychic or spiritual form of guidance, whether through tarot or other augury, is making a whole lot more sense than previously, and also helping focus my own work in those areas which I have chosen or been chosen to focus on so that the goals are achieved and what is destined comes to pass.

That is why I am not sure that I want to go into tarot as a full-time pracitioner: during a sermon on the Holy Spirit this morning (it being Pentecost) the preacher told us all the ways we could use Spirit to bolster the Church of England, and not all the ways we could use it to help the world. I will give her the benefit of the doubt and say she was taking it for granted that we were good citizens, each in our own way, and applied our beliefs to the way we work in the world, but still, the Church saw itself as an end in itself rather than a means to effect change based on its beliefs.

But at the end of the day, none of us know as mortals what is out there, and so we are all entitled to our own view of how things work. Most agnostics or religious sceptics I know, actually, are more turned off by the antics of religious politics than by any idea of God/dess or Spirit. I have also met clergy who are bordering on the atheist but who are able to justify their faith through their belief in community and fellowship of worship rather than any mystical tradition.

Horses for courses I suppose.

brenmck

04-06-2006, 20:25

....during a sermon on the Holy Spirit this morning (it being Pentecost) the preacher told us all the ways we could use Spirit to bolster the Church of England, and not all the ways we could use it to help the world. I will give her the benefit of the doubt and say she was taking it for granted that we were good citizens, each in our own way, and applied our beliefs to the way we work in the world, but still, the Church saw itself as an end in itself rather than a means to effect change based on its beliefs.

But at the end of the day, none of us know as mortals what is out there, and so we are all entitled to our own view of how things work. Most agnostics or religious sceptics I know, actually, are more turned off by the antics of religious politics than by any idea of God/dess or Spirit. I have also met clergy who are bordering on the atheist but who are able to justify their faith through their belief in community and fellowship of worship rather than any mystical tradition.

Not asking the HS to help the world, and most definitely don't have the audacity to ask for personal assistance! During my two years of theology I heard every other day how the HS lives in the Vatican to serve the Magisterium (when they were really stuck, I suppose) but never, ever a personal reflection about the action of the HS from the most learned PhD priests. It's all about the collective, never about the parts of the sum. But the clergy elite may be nearing the end of their run. The "mystical tradition" is far too dangerous to them; when we truly discover that the kingdom of God is within us we may figure out some of these bills we've been paying are unnecessary.

Horses for courses I suppose.

Love the golfer's expression! St Andrew, preserve us!

~B~

MoonLitCrystal

04-06-2006, 22:32

I voted that the cards fall into a meaningful pattern. While I don't always understand this pattern right away, I do believe that a specific card appeared in a specific spot for a reason. It might click days later and I'll go, "Ohhhh THAT'S what it was trying to tell me..."

Nuncle

04-06-2006, 23:40

Hi there.

I know there are a number of people on here who relate Tarot to some kind of formal religious practice, or more generally to God or Goddess, or in its most general form, Spirit. For me, however, I have a hard time with invoking God. I can perhaps accept the idea of Spirit because I see that as a human quality--or a quality developed between humans--and not the image of a superior being. Spirit I can also se as the "communication" behind the meanigful pattern. Maybe I'm talking about being psychic--though I don't think I am. Intuitive would be better. I don;t think it's just random--or not random all the time. Tough one, though, because humans can find meaning in anything. I think the cards present a meaningful pattern. How? I don't know. I do feel a sense of connection, sometimes, when reading. Maybe the pattern is meaningful only to me.

Confused,
Nuncle

greycats

05-06-2006, 00:14

I believe that "matter" and "spirit" are two sides of the same coin, which is exactly how I see the "random" vs. "meaningful" dichotomy in regard to the cards. Human beings created the cards which depict or symbolize a range of concerns and events which are important to us. So the cards are always "meaningful." The cards are placed in certain positions according to a certain order (the spread) which modifies the meaning of each card yet more. The only randomness is the selection of cards from the deck, and we have to work to be sure that the selection is, indeed, as random as we can reasonably make it. The randomness is what makes the exercise a reading and not a meditation, after all.

So, tarot reading to me is both meaningful and random in its patterns. The randomness makes each reading unique and interesting, but the fixed (if somewhat flexible) card meanings and spread patterns ensure some modicum of continuity and coherence. :)

Crowqueen

05-06-2006, 09:39

Not asking the HS to help the world, and most definitely don't have the audacity to ask for personal assistance! During my two years of theology I heard every other day how the HS lives in the Vatican to serve the Magisterium (when they were really stuck, I suppose) but never, ever a personal reflection about the action of the HS from the most learned PhD priests. It's all about the collective, never about the parts of the sum. But the clergy elite may be nearing the end of their run. The "mystical tradition" is far too dangerous to them; when we truly discover that the kingdom of God is within us we may figure out some of these bills we've been paying are unnecessary.

Love the golfer's expression! St Andrew, preserve us!

~B~

The preacher in question is married to the most interesting vicar I have ever known (and is a very spiritual woman herself, although I think she is kept in check by her husband; we have had wonderful conversations about politics so that is why I am giving her the benefit of the doubt; her husband's idea of political action is to write to Blair about Guantanamo Bay (Ash Wednesday 2006 - though it could have been Ash Wednesday 2002 - he must trot that one out every year :(), though, so he is not exactly what I'd call an activist!). Although he is so rational he verges on atheism :grin:, he issued a prayer card telling us to mentally walk round our villages and look for ways in which we could take care of them.

If that's not astral projection or remote viewing, I don't know what is. So I am giving them the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Crowqueen

05-06-2006, 09:49

Maybe I'm talking about being psychic--though I don't think I am. Intuitive would be better. I don;t think it's just random--or not random all the time.

Nurturing intuition leads to nurturing the psychic. I like your conception of Spirit a lot; humans are not just animals, though animals also have their own conceptions, as you can see looking at the attachment dogs make to humans - one belonging to a friend prefigured her owner's serious illness; and they have been known to die alongside their owners (though thankfully not in my friend's case - he recovered and is out of hospital :)).

If you look for meaning in the world you will find it (and it makes one much happier than if you go round thinking life has no meaning, which is the more depressing idea); Denise Linn wrote a very good book on "Signposts" which is mostly dictionary but has some very good articles on the subject of searching for meaning. On a nature walk yesterday I found nature gave me a lot of insight into the political system of the UK, just in poppies and "poohsticks". A good clairvoyant - as I'm fond of quoting - can get a reading from a piece of string. Most of us on here use Tarot, as it's a bit easier to guide us, what with the pictures and all.

catlin

06-06-2006, 08:14

I voted for other because I still have not found an answer what makes the tarot work for me. Maybe it is tapping into the common unconscious or into the unconscious of the querent.

WolfSpirit

06-06-2006, 13:15

I voted both
"the cards fall into meaningful patterns" and
"the cards fall randomly"
and it is always one of the two ;) my common sense says it is randomly; if I had to tell a non-believer what I do with tarot, I would say randomly as well and explain why it still helps me. But since using tarot, I've also seen lots of instants where the cards were not at random: thinking of a certain situation and pulling exactly the right card; pulling the same cards for weeks on end in my daily readings and other readings, to mention a few instances.
So I really think it can be both, I don't know why.
I think what greycats said a few posts back makes a lot of sense to me (but I may have to read it again to make sure I understand :laugh: )

For the record: I don't use the terms God/Godess, I do believe in some sort of universal spirit, but I do not know how this fits into tarot. I don't try to connect with spirit when I use the cards.

Baroli

06-06-2006, 13:31

I am a Christian, protestant in nature, american. I believe that God gave me a rather unusual gift in that I am extremely intuitive and very sensitive. I take that gift and focus it in reading of Tarot. I also believe I am guided by spirit, whether it is the HS or a spirit guide, I don't know. This is what I do and what I believe.

Baroli

NightWing

09-06-2006, 01:41

I'm one of those that does not believe there is any inherent "power" in a deck of tarot cards, at least as far as divination is concerned.

Whatever power of divination exists, I believe it resides in the reader, not the cards.

Because of this, I begin my own readings by invoking Hagia Sophia (the spirit of Holy Wisdom) to guide me, inform me, infuse me, etc. This is to enhance my reading of the cards, not to somehow empower the cards. Other things might work for other people, to focus the mind, etc.

Not to bore regarding archetypes and such, but they do "speak" to us in their universality. People have a way of seeing patterns in many things, be it coffee grounds, textures of fabric, or clouds. We can actively improve our ability to extract meaning from these patterns, given practice, the right frame of mind, creativity, and insight. Call it intuition if you will.

Tarot cards are a tool, and a good one, to enable the human mind to clarify image and pattern, and to locate the meaning that may lie therein. In theory at least, a person who was truly adept could identify meaningful patterns without using the cards at all. For most of us, the 78 cards in various combinations are quite sufficient. For the most part, tarot is really about insight into ourselves or others.

I hope I'm not being too obscure. In the end, I doubt religious/spiritual beliefs, or the absence of them, really matter in tarot...except as they dispose each of us individually as readers. What works for one may not for another. We each must find and explore that path that works for ourselves.

the_surfacer

09-06-2006, 04:13

I voted both for "the cards fall randomly" and "the cards fall into meaningful patterns," because I'm certainly not a psychic, and I'm a Deist, meaning I believe that God/dess created the world and then took an entirely hands-off approach, so that version of things is out for me, too, but when it comes down to those two things, I honestly don't know.

It's one of those things I can't explain, and really don't feel a need to try to. Like WolfSpirit, I tell other people the version where the cards fall randomly and we construct the meaning that we need at the time. But when I'm by myself (or posting here), I'm willing to admit that I don't know.

Sometimes things are so on that it seems they couldn't be entirely random.

Crowqueen

09-06-2006, 15:06

For the record: I don't use the terms God/Godess, I do believe in some sort of universal spirit, but I do not know how this fits into tarot. I don't try to connect with spirit when I use the cards.

Don't know whether you have heard of him or not, but if you can get hold of the excellent book "Hitch-hiking to Heaven" by Lionel Blue, a famous British rabbi, you'll notice that even the clergy have difficulty with naming Him/Her/It these days.

Doreen Virtue mentioned that the best way is to follow the name you were given in your own culture and beliefs, and that others who know Thingymajig by another name will not be offended.

The cards work how you think they work.