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dadsnook2000
07-04-2005, 06:26
The Vatican gained independance from Italy on June 07, 1929 at 11:00 AM, Rome, Italy (-01 CET) 012E29, 41N54

** MC 29-59 Taurus
** ASC 04-49 Virgo
** Sun 16 Gemini
** Moon 14 Gemini
** Mercury 19 Gemini
** Venus 3 Taurus
** Mars 14 Leo
** Jupiter 29 Taurus
** Saturn 28 Sag, Rx
** Uranus 11 Aries
** Neptune 23 Leo
** Pluto 17 Cancer
** N.Node 20 Taurus

The progressed chart for April 8, 2005:
** MC 12 Leo
** ASC 5 Scorpio
** Sun 29 Leo
** Moon 20 Pisces
** Mercury 18 Virgo
** Venus 19 Cancer
** Mars 0 Libra
** Jupiter 13 Gemini
** Saturn 24 Sag Rx
** Uranus 11 Aries
** Neptune 29 Leo
** Pluto 19 Cancer
** N.Node 16 Taurus

Sun/p conj. Neptune/n: Bringing light to confusion and disillusionment.
Venus/p passing conj. with Pluto/n: Revolution in outreach, harmony result in changes in the church.
Jupiter/p conj. Moon/n: Hope for the people.
Mars/p approaching opposition to Venus/n: Lack of stability and poise over modern issues of abortion, sex, disease.
MC/p approaching conjunction with Mars/n: New goals in church's programs and attitudes.
ASC/p passing opposition to Venus/n: Ability and focus on harmony and outreach is passing.

And, then we have transits
Pluto/t Saturn/np: Change in structure and rigidity is prompted.
Saturn/t conj. Pluto/p and passing conj. with Pluto/n: Church tries to codify revolution and new ways of acting/thinking. Who wins, Pluto or Saturn?
Neptune/t opposition Mars/n: Uncertainty in how to proceed.

These are hints, some controversial, some not. What do you think? Dave.

paradoxx
07-04-2005, 09:01
The most interesting thing I saw was that the progressed mercury has moved from Gemini to Virgo. Here the Church is going to have to rethink how they communicate their objectives. As for their beliefs, they are being questioned by their stance on sex, prominant with the Accendent moving from the Virgin (appropriate) to Scorpio (no comment).

dadsnook2000
07-04-2005, 13:45
Yes, Paradox, I believe you are right. The next Pope will not be able to set a course that follows past conservative approaches. There are conflicts to be addressed.

Venus remains in Aries; putting oneself on a pedestal for others to admire. The policies that supported a haromonious approach in the past will have advocates. As you pointed out, Mercury has moved to Scorpio -- how to address sex, aids, the power of world-wide institutions -- all of these have to be addressed and the church has not addressed these in terms of social reform but only in a political sense (managing them to its advantage and to keep them under control) -- IMHO, I should add.

Mars has moved from Leo in the 12th to Libra in the 2nd; The proud warrior that moved behind the scenes has moved into a social reformer mode promoting values and supportive causes -- or something like that. Given that Mars is currently transiting in opposition to the Independance chart Mars, the big question is what tools and arguments will win the day. It ought to be a lively debate relative to picking a new servant of the church. Mars is coming up on Neptune, the arguments or need for specifics will not be clear. I wonder if a short-term caretaker Pope will be chosen in order for the debate to continue, offering flexibility in another couple of years.

For me, the big mystery is how the transiting Saturn over natal/progressed Pluto will play out against transiting Pluto over natal/progressed Saturn. While these two planets have no formal aspectual relationship in the natal chart, the fact that they are mutually triggering each other gives them a great deal of symbolic power.

A) Pluto in Sag suggests upheavals in religion and inter-country relationships. Transiting over Saturn, Pluto should break down old structural approaches to addressing problems and basic values of the church (all of this is in the 4th house). This suggests that a dynamic Pope will need to be elected.

B) Saturn in Cancer suggests a harboring of resources, a tight-fisted approach to using money and making commitments. Transiting over Pluto, in the 11th house of the future, and creating partnerships, represents a force that will need to be reigned in.

These two suggest to me that a short-term Pope, one quite old, will be chosen and that a behind-the-scenes battle will commence for the directional control of the church.

Those are some of my ideas. Dave.

lou
19-04-2005, 23:29
I had a look at Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger birth chart...his MC is quite exactly on the Vatican's progressed Saturn with Pluto transiting on it and trine his Sun, then, the Cardinal's Jupiter and AC are right on the Vatican's progressed Moon and make a perfect trine to both Pluto and Venus of the Vatican's progressed. All this make me think he'll play an important role for the next period into the Vatican...what do you think? People here (media and gossip)are saying that he's one of the most influent elector for this conclave.

here's the link at the chart: http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cgi?lang=e&gif=achart_rcrfileBFhutR-u1113819526.44170.7883.gif&res=100&va=

lou
21-04-2005, 00:30
sorry, I don't know how these links for posting charts from astro.com work.

here are the data for Ratzinger, or well, I should better say Benedetto XVI now (!), I found on the web:

Joseph Ratzinger
April, the 16th, 1927
4:15 AM
Marktl am Inn (Germany)

dadsnook2000
26-04-2005, 11:52
I have just returned from a vacation in Hawii (I live west of Boston, Massachusetts) and had not seen any news casts. It looks like my suspicions have been confirmed -- an old "new" Pope for a short term during which time the battle between the status quo and progressive directions will be worked out.

I'll have to do this new Pope's chart. His predecessor had an "ideal" chart for a Pope. Dave.