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rash212
22-12-2005, 15:41
I have been pondering over this "free will theory" and astrology since
a very long time and I have not yet come to any conclusion thus posting it here, to hear others point of views!

My question is:- If we come on earth with our own astrological charts
(kundli, horoscopes) then how do we apply or why do we say the theory of free will does work?

"Free will" would indicate - free to make life choices/decisions.. but if we have been given free will then why come to earth with an astrological chart?
Why not apply free will and do whatever we want to do on earth? So then what about the theory of karma?

Also, another theory bothers me.. thats the "power of our sub-conscious mind" . It says our sub conscious mind has the power to attract whatever we want to attract in our life time! IF THIS IS TRUE then why again have an astrological chart?

If with the help of our sub conscious mind we can attract "wealth" then why
would the astrological chart say we will be poor in this life time?

Another example :- if the chart indicates "troubled relationships with your soulmate" then howcome with the help of our sub conscious mind we can attract the right partner for us? Howcome with positive affirmations we can attract the right soulmate???

I am really a bit biwildered on all these theroies? I feel they all contradict one another?

Please feel free to give your views, I would love to know what all
you people think!

rainwolf
22-12-2005, 17:37
Astrology inclines, it does not compel.

If your chart "says you will be poor", then that means you will have to work more to be wealthy, than if you went with the flow of everything and did not collect large sums of money. And it depends on your definition of "poor".

sharpchick
23-12-2005, 00:24
Just as with tarot, where the outcome is not carved in stone, so it is with astrology. The star chart merely shows how an individual would be likely to act or respond in a given situation, not how s/he absolutely will. And armed with your star chart, one can easily see where s/he will encounter difficulty if responding "true to form."

star-lover
23-12-2005, 00:43
your birth chart shows what you are made of and is a briliiant picture of YOU and your potential
it doesnt predict anything
your own free will reigns always
you can actually transcend your chart
its a guide a map a gift of help if you like
up to you what you do with it
same with tarot

love

xx

isthmus nekoi
23-12-2005, 01:56
What a great question. It's the number one reason I continue to do astrology - to understand the nature of "free will". And yes, theories will contradict each other because it is such a complex idea.

It seems to me there is no blanket statement one can make for astrology and free will, no quick and easy rules. It depends on each individual and their situation. Unfortunately, a lot of modern "psychological" astrology buys into the "everyone has total autonomy" idea. I believe there is a strong cultural or even socioeconomic class bias to this perspective. I definitely don't think the interplay between symbols, energies and matter can be so easily simplified.

It seems to me in N. America at least, there is a pervasive belief that you should take control, and be responsible for yourself. "Pick yourself up by your bootstraps." This is the idea that your natal chart reveals your potential, but YOU take the reins and control your life. Note that the implicit belief here is that difficult periods in one's life (symbolized by transits) become a result of personal shortcomings. e.g. You f***ed up, so now Saturn is f***ing with you. I have found that this approach is far too simplified although it serves its purpose as a vague generality - no offense intended to those who have espoused this idea as there are definitely situations where this is, and should be, applicable.

The idea of free will is also intimately tied to our conception of consciousness. You must be conscious and aware of what you're doing in order to be acting freely upon your will, right? If you don't really know what's going on - if your actions are actually being motivated by another force (e.g. the unconscious, internalized ideologies etc), well that's not exactly free will, even if you THINK you are acting on your free will. While I think astrology has the potential to give people greater (self) awareness and therefore offer MORE free will, I have seen on MANY occassion where it has not helped and made people relinquish their free will. You can tell when the latter is happening when fear and anxiety come into the picture.

Consciousness is a very complicated thing too. e.g. Let's say you were brought up to desire designer clothing from a young age. You cannot recall a time when you weren't constantly bombarded by ads and media (movies, newspapers etc) saying you should buy designer stuff. Everyone else around you is buying designer stuff too. You buy a designer shirt and tell yourself it's because it's high quality, it flatters your figure, it was on sale. Are you exhibiting free will? The answer to me, is highly debatable. Or let's say you have been a crack addict for over 10 years. You bash someone's head in to steal their money to buy crack. Are you doing this out of free will? If you have ever lived in a crack town, and know the utter devestation this drug can cause, you will know the answer is HIGHLY DEBATABLE.

I look forward to hearing further thoughts :)

watchman291273
23-12-2005, 06:19
I believe astrology sets a broad direction towards which our life will evolve. Then we have to freewill to go as far as we can on it. Like it was said before, it's all a matter on potential and depending on how much energy we're willing to invest into learning our lessons, we'll grow more or less spiritually and will go further on our path.

Since every planet, sign, aspect has a positive and negative side, we already have a large amount of combinations possible for a given chart. That's where freewill lies to me.

I don't think there's such a thing as a chart tagging someone poor for a lifetime. It may make things harder or delay the time before a decent income but if the person works on it, I doubt fate will keep whacking them throughout their life as a reward.

As to attracting the right "soulmate", you need to be ready for that person and it often goes through experiencing sh***y relationships beforehand to become more mature emotionally. And if we don't evolve, we're likely keep attracting the same pattern of people that don't fit us. (like abusive relationships to some people)

I also believe we have a "pool" of soulmates. And the more we learn our lessons, the likelier we are to be sent new ones, further on their spiritual journey, to learn new stuff with.

star-lover
23-12-2005, 06:45
I believe astrology sets a broad direction towards which our life will evolve. Then we have to freewill to go as far as we can on it. Like it was said before, it's all a matter on potential and depending on how much energy we're willing to invest into learning our lessons, we'll grow more or less spiritually and will go further on our path.

Since every planet, sign, aspect has a positive and negative side, we already have a large amount of combinations possible for a given chart. That's where freewill lies to me.

I don't think there's such a thing as a chart tagging someone poor for a lifetime. It may make things harder or delay the time before a decent income but if the person works on it, I doubt fate will keep whacking them throughout their life as a reward.

As to attracting the right "soulmate", you need to be ready for that person and it often goes through experiencing sh***y relationships beforehand to become more mature emotionally. And if we don't evolve, we're likely keep attracting the same pattern of people that don't fit us. (like abusive relationships to some people)

I also believe we have a "pool" of soulmates. And the more we learn our lessons, the likelier we are to be sent new ones, further on their spiritual journey, to learn new stuff with.

i so agree with that post - no chart determines one being poor or unlucky in love or anything like that - thats too fatalistic

as for soulmates - yes - you have to go through a load of sh** before you start getting some results lol

Nevada
23-12-2005, 07:05
I had some thoughts about this during a spiritual discussion a while back regarding fate or destiny as opposed to free will. How is it that we come to these blanket beliefs---that we think things are so simplistic we must either have free will OR have a destiny? Why can we not think of the universe as much more complex than that? Everything we experience in nature has multiple layers to it.

It doesn't have to be one way or the other, black or white. Yes, perhaps we're destined to have a particular chart, but that doesn't mean destiny is all we have. We have free will, intelligence, and the ability to make reasoned choices about how we live our lives and interact with others and our world.

Edited to add: I've since read the other replies, and agree with Moongold (below) --- Isthmus Nekoi says it all.

Nevada

Moongold
23-12-2005, 07:26
All the atrological chart does is give you a snapshot of the heavens at the exact moment of your birth.

As people interested in Tarot and the esoteric, most of us are familiar with the phrase As above, so below and that sums up astrology for me. It is the study of cycles. By studying the movements and interactions of the planets we are able to gain some insight into the patterns of our own lives.

Astrology is simply a tool to help us understand our own lives. For me it is a different tool from the Tarot but it has been and still is SO accurate. It's very complex and takes work and study but that is worthwhile.

There are various approaches to astrology and this reinforces the notion of astrology as a tool . It can be as useful as the amount of understanding you have of it and your imagination in using it.

I very much like Isthmus' thoughts on free will and consciousness. For me, the more the knowledge and awareness I have, the better choices I may be able to make about my life. When I first encountered astrology it explained my life up to that point in time in more depth and with more accuracy than anything else. As I approach my second Saturn return, that knowledge has been invaluable.

People who dismiss astrology as "predetermination" and so on usually have little understanding of what astrology really is and can be. But that is their right and choice. :). Astrology works for those who want it and are open to it.

Moongold

einhverfr
23-12-2005, 07:39
Well, the standard statement is "The Stars Impell, they do not compell" but I actually don't agree with this exactly. THe problem is that this statement implies that the stars are an external force which influence us and I don't think that this is accurate.

I think the point of view in the Renaissance (and one I agree with) is that astrology provides a look into a more abstract map of one's life. If the moon was in Libra when I was born, there is no way I am moving it to, say, Taurus (where it is exhaulted). However, I do have a great deal of choice on how exactly I channel the tendencies that are inherent in this combination in my life. So instead of seeing the birth chart as a set of predispositions or outside forces, I see it as a map to tools one can use and must learn to master in one's own life.

Free Will only applies to the present and to choices. It does not apply in an unfettered sense to our circumstances in life or the pressure that the ages past exerts on the as yet undefined future. So a birth chart doesn't tell you what choices a person will likely make but they can tell you a lot about what talents a person might have, what circumstances might be unusually dangerous, and from what tendencies a person derives his/her spiritual strength and power.

Hope this helps.

paradoxx
23-12-2005, 12:39
I have to say taht free will trumps pre-determination unless we are pre-determined to be ruled by our free will.

I make this (convoluted) statement because the same astrological aspect or event (say a mercury or venus retrograde) can be interpreted as positive by one astrologer and negative by another and neither could provide you with the advice that you can readily use in your life.

I see astrology as the art of giving good advice and sometimes a warning (the effect of full moons do have a scientific basis behind them, pluto is a little harder to prove), but in the end it is our own awareness of our world and our own free will that allows us to absorb that advice (and in some cases give some of our own) for our own betterment.

einhverfr
23-12-2005, 14:57
I have to say taht free will trumps pre-determination unless we are pre-determined to be ruled by our free will.

I make this (convoluted) statement because the same astrological aspect or event (say a mercury or venus retrograde) can be interpreted as positive by one astrologer and negative by another and neither could provide you with the advice that you can readily use in your life.

I see astrology as the art of giving good advice and sometimes a warning (the effect of full moons do have a scientific basis behind them, pluto is a little harder to prove), but in the end it is our own awareness of our world and our own free will that allows us to absorb that advice (and in some cases give some of our own) for our own betterment.

Hmmm.....

I don't think that the physical planets have any force on our lives (the luminaries might, however, but they are a small part of astrology). Instead I think that the planets are standins for abstract internal concepts that exist in our lives. To paraphrase Pracelsus, the external and internal worlds are mirrors of eachother, so if Mars moves through the constellations, it necessarily follows that an analagous aspect of our psyche moves through something analogous to the constellations within us. In other words, astrology like any other form of divination, works by looking at the external world and using that as a mirror into our lives. I.e. when one gives a tarot reading the same principle is at work.

Every one of us comes to this life with special talents and challenges. Some people may be good at sports, and some may excel at mathematics. How we develop is of our own choosing, but we may have some innate talents or challenges that are not (I have attention deficit disorder, for example).

I look at fate or destiny as a combination of those unique challenges and talents we have (which can be seen through astrology), what we call in the Norse Tradition the Orlog or "Primal Law", in combination with the weight of the past (Urdh or "What Has Turned"). These don't negate free will but they do constrain it. In other words, once I send an email I can't easily un-send it and the impact it has may revisit itself upon me. But I sent the email by my own free will and hence I am actually creating those forces (i.e. destiny) that may constrain me in the future.

In short, some of fate is inherited from those who have come before, some is given to us uniquely, and some we make ourselves through the excersize of free will (most of the small events in our lives are based on free will, and some of "destiny" is really past actions revisited on ourselves).

As for astrology and the Rx Mercury having both positive and negative interpretations... I think that in general astrological events are extremely abstract and so the Rx Mercury may manifest either as good or bad (I have found the station points though to be crisis points, though the crises are usually temporary). Indeed often we can choose to emphasize those aspects of the chart we want to materialize in our life in the way we want it to. Understanding the potentials in positive and negative terms is important because we can see what challenges we have (the negative) and what tools we have to get what we truly desire in life.

Hope this makes sense. I just think that the chart represents a sort of owner's manual to one's life. It represents destiny in the abstract, but we choose how that occurs.

rash212
23-12-2005, 17:25
Thankyou everyone for those lovely and thought stimulating replies... even I am under the impression that "free will" does work and horoscope, tarot or any other divinition tools are merely tools to help us and guide us!

I also like the way einhverfr has said "In short, some of fate is inherited from those who have come before, some is given to us uniquely, and some we make ourselves through the excersize of free will (most of the small events in our lives are based on free will, and some of "destiny" is really past actions revisited on ourselves)."
-
--That surely made me smile!!! I agree to that 100%. In short you are talking about "karma"

I really enjoyed reading everyone's post... thankyou:)!

retiredguy
24-12-2005, 03:41
Hi,
To me your astrology chart is like a weather report. If you see it
is going to rain then it is your choice if you want to bring an
umbrella. You can always use your free will.

wizzle
24-12-2005, 09:15
I think it is absolutely ridiculous to assume we can do anything we want to to in life. Saturn, people, Saturn. We all have limits. I was not born an incredibly beautiful blond who could be a multi-million dollar model.

That being said, we do have a good deal of flexibility within our own limitations. Nor do I view Saturn's limitations as "bad." As things are arranged, we can only absorb so much data and can't do it all. So perhaps our charts are snapshots where we would like to place our energies and focus in this incarnation.